Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Phmcw]

Grakelin ,what's your point? He shoot a democrat because of some sort of "evil currency". The thing that is contemned is the "just shoot them" discourse in tea party politics. he could have gotten the "evil currency" idea left or right, indiscriminately. The "second amendment solution" is topically right wing (and has been left wing before see "liberal crime squad" who is after an actual terrorist group, or the CCC.), so we are mad at hem for trowing such nonsense. 

[RedKing]

I think you guys are getting near the point, but still missing it.

Loughner wasn't anti-Left or anti-Right. He was anti-Government. Giffords was his local Congresscritter, so to him, she was the face of the Government (and I use Govenrnment with a big G, because to guys like him, it's a monolithic entity, not a collection of people)


Right now, the Tea Party and its ilk are the anti-Government voice, so it seems convenient to lay the blame at their feet. Seven years ago, it was the far-left that were the anti-Government voice. There's ALWAYS an anti-Government voice and there are always nutcases who believe the US Federal Government is some kind of shadowy cabal up to nefarious ends.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I agree with pretty much everything said in this article.

[Alexhans]

Grakelin ,what's your point? He shoot a democrat because of some sort of "evil currency".

I think you're reaching.  We absolutely don't know enough yet to claim this with a decent degree of certainty.

Some interesting questions that I'd like answers for:
How premeditated was the murder?  Had he been toying with the idea of taking violent action against the government in general or was Gifford a specific target? Was it just at hand? Are those videos an intended message directly related to the killing? What did he hope to achieve? Notoriety? Telling the world to go fuck itself? What are his views on collateral damage he did/might cause?

[Eugenitor]

What are his views on collateral damage he did/might cause?

Considering he aimed and fired at a nine-year-old with his semiautomatic, I think we know the answer to that.

(edit: pronoun)

[RedKing]

I know I said I wouldn't get involved in the gun debate, but I would like to point out that several people in the crowd, including Congresswoman Giffords herself, were armed with handguns at the time of the shooting.

This presents an interesting test case that seems to disprove two of the most potent memes in the gun-rights debate the last few years:

1. The NRA position that violent crimes would be deterred by more armed citizens. Insisting, for instance, that the Virginia Tech massacre would have been averted if students were allowed to carry firearms on campus.

2. The counter-position that a bunch of armed citizens responding to a lone gunman would create a bloodbath.

In this case, neither of those held true. The shooter had the element of surprise, as most premeditated acts of violence will. And people reacted sensibly by tackling the guy and removing his weapon rather than turning into the OK Corral (which, coincidentally enough, is part of AZ-8).

[Alexhans]

What are his views on collateral damage he did/might cause?

Considering he aimed and fired at a nine-year-old with his semiautomatic, I think we know the answer to that.

(edit: pronoun)

Did he aim at the 9 year old or just kept shooting recklessly? (I don't know)

I'm trying to understand the shooter (and his motives).  Not just bash him.  That's easy.  Did he have some sort of "people who are part of the system are my enemy as well" matrix kind of view? or what?

[Ochita]

Random targets?

[Leafsnail]

When firing into a fairly tightly packed crowd?

[Duke 2.0]

In this case, neither of those held true. The shooter had the element of surprise, as most premeditated acts of violence will. And people reacted sensibly by tackling the guy and removing his weapon rather than turning into the OK Corral (which, coincidentally enough, is part of AZ-8).

Although to be fair there are other factors to such an event. Like in school shootings a good deal of the time the gunman spends is not within arms reach of a crowd that can tackle him down without getting shot. Where this was luckily in the middle of a horde of people who would wrestle him down without as much risk. And the initial victim will be dead no matter what the killer is using. The most important factors here are collateral damage after the initial target is attacked and how the attacker wants to end this.

[Eugenitor]

The crowd was reported as being 20-30 people who'd all watched their Congresswoman get shot in the face. Unless they were all frozen stock-still by shock, they must have had time to start running around shot 10 or so. He apparently didn't shoot the same person many times in a row, he must have aimed lower to kill the kid, and the kill/hit ratio is way, way too high to be unaimed just-shooting. So yeah, he was trying to kill everyone.

[Alexhans]

Fun fact: You don't get eleven hits and six kills with a Glock by shooting randomly, at least not on one or two mags.

Good point.  I forgot how many casualties he had caused.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-08/justice/arizona.shooting.scene_1_rescue-workers-gunman-medical-helicopters?_s=PM:CRIME
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110109/NATIONAL/110109005/Rep-Gabrielle-Giffords-shot-6-killed-witness-describes-Arizona-rampage

Not much, but it's something... What some witnesses saw and experienced.

he was trying to kill everyone.

If he was (which seems likely, given what you've posted...) Why?

I mean... madmen MAKE sense in their own way... I'm trying to untangle that way.

[Ochita]

His world is a various seperation thing where everyone is connected, their connections making them what their connections are. (Gov is bad-> Law is bad-> Policeman is bad-> Policeman is person--> person is bad)?

[RedKing]

People who don't believe me are evil and dont deserve to live.

Nobody believes me.

Hence, everyone is evil and doesn't deserve to live.



Damn it....as much as the idea sickens me, this guy's "logic" pattern is going to become an Internet meme.

[Eugenitor]

The Internet is full of demented people.

Loughner is a demented person.

Therefore, the Internet will start talking like Loughner.