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[Toaster]

Unvote Zathras.  Ok then, there's no reason to lynch to today, because we can confirm your role change, at least.  All you have to do is vote at day-end for someone with one or two votes less than the leader.  If your vote target is lynched instead, you're full of shit, hopefully someone blocks you, and you hang D3.

Also, that is what I meant for the second question- I was in a bit of a hurry and didn't proofread.


This, of course, brings me back to Native.  Please reference the post where I first voted you.  Did you miss it the first time?


Ottofar, are you going to be useful now that you've already been modkilled once for inactivity?  What do you make of Zath's story?  Besides him, who do you suspect and why?

[Nirur Torir]

Christmas weekend is over; It's time for us all to get back to Internet Arguments Game.

Zathras: I'm willing to accept that you're no longer a SK. You probably don't have any night actions, due to balance. I don't know whether or not you're telling the truth about being townie, or whether you're now part of some sort of necromantic cult. I'd rather go after somebody useless, however.

Pandarsenic: My day 1 concerns about you are still there. If your claim is not fairly easy to verify and useful for town, you will be blocked tonight, even if everybody else gives a haiku. I do hope you get back to arguing with people over their scumminess soon.

Jokerman: I'm not defending you, merely going after somebody I've felt the need to go after for most of the weekend. Furthermore, you should attack people you feel are scum, rather then waving around that they did something scummy. You know this. Do it yourself.

NativeForeigner: If Pandarsenic's claim leads me to not block him, I'm blocking you. I didn't feel like what you did - or did not do - during day 1 was townie behavior.

You didn't commit to much during D1, other then your undying hatred for Jokerman. Please give your read on everybody. {Everybody} includes lurkers.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Jokerman: I'm not defending you, merely going after somebody I've felt the need to go after for most of the weekend. Furthermore, you should attack people you feel are scum, rather then waving around that they did something scummy. You know this. Do it yourself.

Yeah, sorry. I was really drunk last night. Actual post coming...now.

Zathras:

1. I do.

2. I didn't say anything about indiscriminately killing them all; I'm not an Exterminator. I also never said that I wouldn't target anyone else - I didn't mean to imply that I would only kill lurkers, simply that it was a prerogative that I have/had.

3. I think that as the days progress, lurking becomes more and more of an issue, because doing so means you give off far less of a signature on the game, and information from lynches and kills has less effect on how you appear. In that vein, I feel that beyond D1 lurking should be something that's looked at.

4. I suppose that's true. However, my statement is not false, and at the time I had no way of knowing that you weren't what I suspected you to be - can you admit to that? It was enough reason (I thought) for me to take matters into my own hands.

5. I'm not denying that it was an OMGUS - it totally was. But that's not the important part of it at all. If I felt you were scum, doing scummy things and trying to shunt attention off yourself and onto Town, then I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone with an ability like mine to take action.

6. I've already explained this in the thread at least three times, but thanks for trying to piggyback a dead argument. If you still want to play, how about you actually read the thread instead of just throwing everything you can think of?

7. I think I've addressed the first point enough times now. Really, it's getting to the point where people are just not reading what I say. No, I had no proof. Yes, it changed over 24 hours. No, I don't have evidence because it was a gut feeling.
I did not say lurking was okay. I said there is nothing inherently scummy about it, yes. There's nothing inherently scummy about asking for a replacement, either - doesn't mean it's okay. Pandar's used it to win games as scum.

I'm looking forward to reading your next post, which I'm sure will be full of lots of analysis on the other players in the game.


Native:

1. I'm sorry, how is it a "BS campaign" if it's true? And why is the only other option to OMGUS Zathras? Either you're attempting to create a false dichotomy, which is possible, or you're an idiot. I'm still waiting for you to prove my claims wrong, kid. All you've done is cry that my arguments are bullshit (with no reasoning as to why), waffle over voting me, and then cry some more.

2. Show me the cop outs you're pointing to. If my roleclaim[/i] wasn't enough evidence for you, and my daykill that lost me my Vigilante kill[/i] doesn't do it for you, then golly gee whiz, what fucking will?

3. "As far as you're concerned"? Hahahaha, it's not concerned with you! I'm not trying to convince you that you're scum; I'm trying to show everyone else. This entire section of your post is just a mess of "no u" and "I don't see the merit in your argument" even though you've been trying to argue against it and failing.

I know you're scum, and I intend to see you hang today.

Oh really? Is that so? So you admit to sidelining and refusing to go after someone you "know" is scum? How is that not harmful to town? Because you said yourself, you didn't really feel like going after me once Zathras died. You actually only moved your vote to me after you were questioned on it. Then you voted Zathras (a move to appear pro-town, probably) until you saw that he was voting me - and then it's safe for you to start the bandwagon? If you "knew" I was scum, then why would you vote for anyone else?

NativeForeigner needs to die.


Further Thoughts:

1. Too many people are reviving this game. 

2. Ottofar, srsly? The lurking is ridiculous, and you've even been modkilled and brought back. Do something.

3. Zathras raises a lot of good points, but seriously, I'm getting tired of only reading his posts for content. People need to start playing the game here.

[Ottofar]

Ottofar, are you going to be useful now that you've already been modkilled once for inactivity?  What do you make of Zath's story?  Besides him, who do you suspect and why?

As much as possible.
As for Zath, I'm afraid of a cult of the dead. I had some reasoning for it too, but didn't write it up, and now I have forgotten what it was. I'm quite sure it'll come back to me when I reread.

Zathras, one doesn't survive a modkill without the mod being generous.

[NativeForeigner]

Lol, Native is such a bandwagoner. While Zath is dead, you can't be bothered to make a case on me, but as soon as he's back you're sooooo fired up and ready? I hope someone else can see this crap.

PFP, real post in the morning.

This is the exact kind of thing I was talking about. Jokerman trying to hurt my credibility with more nonsense. Heads up, bud: It's not a bandwagon if I was still after you when Zath was dead, it's simply resuming my suspicions. There was only a pause because Zath coming back from the dead wasn't exactly something to ignore. Like you said, I hope someone else can see this crap.

This, of course, brings me back to Native.  Please reference the post where I first voted you.  Did you miss it the first time?

Glad you could get back to me. I didn't miss it, I just forgot to get to it. First off, in my defense for voting Jokerman after you brought it up, it had simply slipped my mind to actually cast a vote on him. When you brought it up, I realized that and cast the vote. You might see that as icing, understandable, but I don't see the cake.

Could you explain how the post you mentioned had set off bells for you?

NativeForeigner: If Pandarsenic's claim leads me to not block him, I'm blocking you. I didn't feel like what you did - or did not do - during day 1 was townie behavior.

You didn't commit to much during D1, other then your undying hatred for Jokerman. Please give your read on everybody. {Everybody} includes lurkers.

If you're worried about my night skill, I'll recite a haiku for you if it makes you feel better, I didn't even use my night skill last time.

As for my reads,

Jokerman is the scummiest out of all of them in my opinion. His arguments against me hold little weight and he's trying desperately to ruin my credibility. Which I find suspicious because he only did so after I chose to continue against him even after Zathras' death. He must not have liked that I still thought he could've been scum and he still hasn't successfully disproved or proved anything.

Toaster is giving Jokerman an unusual amount of support without much original or strong support for this decision. It happened right after I voted for Jokerman. While he says it was a scummy move, he hasn't said much else to support himself which leads me to believe he could be scum along with Jokerman.

Org continues to be utterly useless, but otherwise not a huge target.

Ottofar is about as useful as Org right now, even after surviving the modkill, he hasn't done much. I can't tell if he's uninterested or busy town, or shy scum. It looks like he might be starting to try, though.

Argembarger hasn't said much, either, but he's had a few good posts. Other than the inactivity, he's not really scummy.

Archangel brought a little suspicion to himself with the bold move he pulled by ending the day early. However, because Pandar didn't actually flip, it's difficult to tell whether it was a hasty move by scum or a bold (maybe foolish) move by town.

Pandar, until his roleclaim comes about, will remain suspicious to me for his little revival act.

MBP apparently voted for himself D1, which is strange, but he hasn't been excessively scummy.

IronyOwl has been keeping his posts short and sweet D2. I feel his buddying towards Zath on D1 was way overblown and he hasn't been scummy otherwise.

Zathras might actually be town now, it seems plausible enough but Toaster's strategy might be the only real way to tell. His willingness to be blocked adds some credibility, but it could also be some sort of ruse. For now, I'm still wary of him, but I'm more concerned with the bullshit Joker's trying to pull to linger on Zathras.

You have been scumhunting here and there, haven't been lingering on individuals, and your roleclaim seems interesting. If it turns out to be true, you could be a valuable asset to town, but it wouldn't guarantee you townhood.

Native:

1. I'm sorry, how is it a "BS campaign" if it's true? And why is the only other option to OMGUS Zathras? Either you're attempting to create a false dichotomy, which is possible, or you're an idiot. I'm still waiting for you to prove my claims wrong, kid. All you've done is cry that my arguments are bullshit (with no reasoning as to why), waffle over voting me, and then cry some more.

2. Show me the cop outs you're pointing to. If my roleclaim[/i] wasn't enough evidence for you, and my daykill that lost me my Vigilante kill[/i] doesn't do it for you, then golly gee whiz, what fucking will?

3. "As far as you're concerned"? Hahahaha, it's not concerned with you! I'm not trying to convince you that you're scum; I'm trying to show everyone else. This entire section of your post is just a mess of "no u" and "I don't see the merit in your argument" even though you've been trying to argue against it and failing.

I know you're scum, and I intend to see you hang today.

Oh really? Is that so? So you admit to sidelining and refusing to go after someone you "know" is scum? How is that not harmful to town? Because you said yourself, you didn't really feel like going after me once Zathras died. You actually only moved your vote to me after you were questioned on it. Then you voted Zathras (a move to appear pro-town, probably) until you saw that he was voting me - and then it's safe for you to start the bandwagon? If you "knew" I was scum, then why would you vote for anyone else?

NativeForeigner needs to die.

1) It's a BS campaign because it's not true. It seems like a huge OMGUS to me because I wouldn't let you off the hook after Zathras flipped and poor little Jokerman didn't like that. QQ some more, please. Which claims are you talking about? Because I can't seem to recall any I didn't argue against. I'm still waiting for you to prove my claims wrong. So far you've only given shit for evidence. You have yet to prove that you aren't scum or a third party, only that the chance that anyone is anything ever other that town is slim. That doesn't prove shit.

2) I'm sorry, but a roleclaim's just a roleclaim, there's no way for you to prove it. And even if you could prove you were a vigilante, that doesn't prove your townhood. There's been scum vigilante before. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was you. The copouts I've been talking about are your half-assed arguments. You're more interested in hurting my credibility than arguing against my claims against you.

3) There's that silly little thing you do when someone's on to you again, you get sarcastic, bash on the other person, and try desperately to defend yourself and while discrediting them some more. The only person who seems to think "I've been failing" is you, and of course YOU'RE not going admit I'm right.

I never admitted to sidelining, learn to read. I said I wasn't going to chase you because I didn't want it to turn into this. Something between you and me where we leave everyone else out. I wanted to question other people and bring more into the fray rather than 1v1ing you because nothing gets accomplished that way. Furthermore, I didn't know you were scum, I never claimed to. I only claimed that I believed you to be scummy. I've only come to the conclusion that you are, indeed, scum during these recent arguments of ours. I mean it, learn to fucking read, seriously. And I didn't move my vote, it wasn't on anyone previously. I voted for Zath because he came back to life and was a confirmed SK. He was the obvious vote and I went for it until he defended himself, which he did. He's not off the hook, but I no longer know for sure if he's an anti-town role. So I resumed going after you, whom I know almost definitely to be scum. In short, if you know someone to have JUST flipped SK, why WOULDN'T you vote for them? So I did, he defended himself, and I went back to you.

Please, spew more bullshit my way.

[Toaster]

Native:  The post in question:

Wouldn't you consider that scum suicide? Zathras has been on Joker from the start and was the first to bring up any suspicion towards Joker, that seems like it would be a pretty stupid move if they were a scumteam.

Well, Zathras seems to be a pretty aggressive scumhunter, so you could very well be trying to avoid getting in his sights. The reason you would be next on my list of suspects if Joker should flip scum is because you could have been trying to distance yourself from Jokerman by siding with Zathras.

See, here's the problem. You figure Zathras wouldn't bus his scumbuddy because it'd be suicide, but I might because Zathras is aggressive. Why?

This would be tunneling, not bussing. And I'm not saying you're bussing, just distancing (hypothetically). It wouldn't make sense for anyone to be bussing this early in the game, it could be a fatal mistake to do so.

This post really sticks out to me, and it's hard to say why.  Basically, the difference between scum tunnelling and bussing is the alignment of the target, which your distinction makes it sound like you know it, and of course if you know it, it is because you are scum.

What support for Jokerman are you talking about?


Jokerman:  A thought came to me.  Zath mentioned "cleansing fire" as part of his revival- could your day kill have had anything to do with that?  Would the flavor match up?


Ottofar:  How's that reread going?


Puppet:  I'd love to hear from you, since all you've done today is ask Zath obvious questions.  Do you still suspect Irony?

...Wait, you're listed as voting yourself, but your last vote's on Irony.  What?


Webadict:  As far as I can tell, MBP last voted for Irony, but the dayend count shows his vote on himself.  Is that correct?

[Jokerman-EXE]

Nnnnnnno, sorry. That wouldn't be anything with me, but it sounds more and more like cult.

PFP on my way to work, sorry.

[Ottofar]

The powerlessness is one thing, and I doubt that there is a role, which allows multiple revives for town's side. And nobody has claimed they revived Zathras.

[Toaster]

Ottofar:  How's that reread going?


Jokerman:  All right.  I hate to try to use mod meta, but revivocult two games in a row?  I don't know.

[Zathras]

Apologies for light posting, been tied up. Also, new lurkertracker will be posted later today.

Unvote Zathras.  Ok then, there's no reason to lynch to today, because we can confirm your role change, at least.  All you have to do is vote at day-end for someone with one or two votes less than the leader.  If your vote target is lynched instead, you're full of shit, hopefully someone blocks you, and you hang D3.

I'm OK with this plan. It means I can't actually vote for who I want lynched, though. Say Joker is still my target at end of day, and he has five votes including mine, Native has three, and you have two. I can't vote Native because that'd cause a tie, but I can vote you to confirm me in this manner. But say Joker has four (with mine) and Native has four, then my moving to you would confirm me but let my target live... tough spot, but I'd choose survival. The price to pay for being revived, I guess. OK, so it'll be exclusively up to you guys to decide who hangs. I'll vote for whoever the second place is, unless it ties it up, in which case I'll go for the third.

I'm looking forward to reading your next post, which I'm sure will be full of lots of analysis on the other players in the game.

Yes, I'll do that first since yours is a huge dumper truck full of bullshit and it'll take a while.


Ottofar:

Zathras, one doesn't survive a modkill without the mod being generous.

I don't buy it. Either you always had a revive or someone revived you or something sinister is going on. Wuba ain't the generous mod type, even at christmas. Questions for you: Who are your top scum picks? If you were scum, who would you have killed last night? How about tonight? What are your thoughts on Jokerman and Toaster?


Toaster: I find your vote on Native suspicious. I don't know him to be town or anything (though I admit I like to have an ally in the fuck-Jokerman fight), but the case on him seems to be so far that he was useless D1 (hardly the only one, yes Ottofar/Org/Arg/Arch?), and that he had one post that "sticks out" to you. Do you have anything else to climb onto a bandwagon?

Also, you have been giving Jokerman ample indirect support, by not questioning him at all (your latest question of substance to him was "Given that Zathras is dead, who is your next target?"), your only contact with him has been softballs or talking about others (see [1]), and you've relentlessly attacked those who have attacked him (IronyOwl and Native), but being careful to attack them for other things not to be seen as a chainsaw defender. I'm pretty certain you two are a team.


Pandarsenic: You D1 play was very scummy. Short summary below. I admit I'm curious about the fun and exciting thing, so I'm partial to letting you live for today, but if you're pulling a fast one, you'll hang for sure tomorrow. On the other hand, I'm weary of the possibility that you are a team with the above, in which case we are walking into a trap.

Also, your having something interesting for tonight doesn't mean you have to be useless today. Please contribute. Questions for you, same as for Ottofar: Who are your top scum picks? If you were scum, who would you have killed last night? How about tonight? What are your thoughts on Jokerman and Toaster? Plus: do you think the fun and exciting thing will verify your alignment? What consequences do you foresee if you are prevented from doing it?

Pandar summary: a) resistance to people restating their cases [1]; b) reluctance to state an opinion on Jokerman even when asked several times (he ended up the day without answering that question, as I predicted) [2]; c) vote on Archangel for stupid reasons, which changed over time; and d) rampant useless for most of D1, only becoming active towards the end (mostly to call other people useless)


Native: I'm uncertain of your alignment yet, but if you did the haiku thing it may give us some reassurance.


Details on Jokerman coming later today, but in brief: he's full of shit. The only places he's not lying now are where he admits we was lying earlier. He's surely scum.

[Toaster]

Toaster: I find your vote on Native suspicious. I don't know him to be town or anything (though I admit I like to have an ally in the fuck-Jokerman fight), but the case on him seems to be so far that he was useless D1 (hardly the only one, yes Ottofar/Org/Arg/Arch?), and that he had one post that "sticks out" to you. Do you have anything else to climb onto a bandwagon?

Calling it a bandwagon vote forgets one thing:  I voted him right before the quickend of D1.

As far as Jokerman goes- I think he's town, largely because I buy his roleclaim.  A vig with a daykill (even one that removes the NK) would be extraordinarily powerful for scum.

[Ottofar]

Ottofar:  How's that reread going?

I just read D2 today, to remind me of my reasoning. I'll do a complete one tomorrow, and recheck my suspicions.

I'm having semi-serious headache, and I'm heading to bed.

[Zathras]

Toaster: I find your vote on Native suspicious. I don't know him to be town or anything (though I admit I like to have an ally in the fuck-Jokerman fight), but the case on him seems to be so far that he was useless D1 (hardly the only one, yes Ottofar/Org/Arg/Arch?), and that he had one post that "sticks out" to you. Do you have anything else to climb onto a bandwagon?

Calling it a bandwagon vote forgets one thing:  I voted him right before the quickend of D1.

Ah, but you forget another thing: that was already a third-on-bandwagon vote, cast because you were unhappy on how he conducted his attack... on Jokerman. Plus you didn't address the fact that you have been supporting him throughout (discreetly, but intensely); you've done nothing other than attacking those who attack him. (save one half-assed attack on Pandar which didn't last long; distancing?)

As far as Jokerman goes- I think he's town, largely because I buy his roleclaim.  A vig with a daykill (even one that removes the NK) would be extraordinarily powerful for scum.

But why do you buy his claim? You give no reasons for that, and you have failed to see anything scummy on the multiple items against him, even when others at least considered them. The most you did was scratch your head. You buy his claim without asking him any questions, but you go in a belaboured rampage against IronyOwl for asking about him? You leave aside the possibility of him being not a vig with a daykill, but a scum with a daykill?

I don't buy it. You are his scummate.

[Zathras]

Just a recent exchange that should show what I mean by your indirect defence and reluctance to ask him anything:

5. What do you think of Jokerman's claim that Zathras was ignoring his arguments?

5.  I'm not sure what you want with this one.  Zath flipped scum, so his motivations are revealed as self-interested.  Yes, he very well could have selectively ignored some, but many of his [Zath's] points are still valid.

For 5, I want your opinion on Jokerman claiming that. You say Zath was self-interested, but that his points were valid, but I want to know what you think of Jokerman claiming that in the first place, not just the validity of it.

5.  ...I don't really have an opinion on that.  He either skimmed Zath's argument and missed it (which would be just sloppy), or intentionally missed and and misrepresented Zath as not responding to it (scummy).  I can't answer without being in his head, but if I had to guess, I'd pick option 1.

So, some of my points were valid. You admit that. Yet, other than that "scratching my head" post, you did nothing about it. You say you'd "guess" he sloppily skimmed without reading, instead of venturing to say he was scummy, but you don't ask Jokerman about it either.

Those "valid points" had been hashed days prior, but you didn't even consider whether you'd guess if he was sloppy or scummy until D2 started and you were pressed on it; you therefore admit that you willingly dismissed those valid points for days while moving your vote to those who were attacking Joker. Or should we guess you were also sloppily skimming them?

I'd like people to notice just how hard it was to get you to answer a question on the matter, and when you did you explicitly say you "have no opinion" on it but reluctantly venture a half-assed guess. Reminds me of how Pandar failed, after repeated requests, to form an opinion on this very matter yesterday as well. Stating one's opinion shouldn't be that hard, yes?




Also, regarding the possibility that Pandar is the last of the scummy triplets, I just noticed that his clearly impulsive vote on Archangel D1[1] happened immediately after this:

I think Zathras is right about Jokerman and Joker should be lynched.
Toaster and Puppet, please restate you cases against IronyOwl.

Curiouser and curiouser. I'm having second thoughts about letting Pandar go ahead with his exciting thing. I somehow don't think it'll be that exciting for the non-scum segment of the population... thoughts?

[NativeForeigner]

 On my phone, so this'll be a shorty.

Nirur, before I commit to this Haiku, how am I to know it won't turn me cult or something? I'm sure it wouldn't kill me because both Zath and I dying the same night would make you an instant target.