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[Toaster]

It's just another example of establishing a connection.

This doesn't refute my point. You consider mentioning both our names in the same sentence to be "establishing a connection."

Like I said, I only brought attention to it because of the initial occurrence.  If it hadn't happened the first time, I wouldn't have looked twice at the second one.

Rephrase?  Fair enough. Original:

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Rephrase:

"Do you think any of the three of us are scummy?  What's your take on this nonsense situation?"

See the difference?  There's no grouping here- a simple request for opinion.

There is a connection- you're lumping all three of us together, and creating the false dilemma that if Jokerman's not scummy, none of us are.

The only connection is that you three are going back and forth with each other.  That way is asking for a summary opinion of the situation.  Your notion of a false dilemma there is nonsense.

You didn't use the word, but right in the first quote- you deliberately didn't mention something you thought scummy.  Why wouldn't you do that?  The only reason I see is that you don't want to draw more attention to your buddying.

As I've stated, I didn't want to step on Zathras' toes by going after the same guy for the same reasons. I agree I should have gone all in or held out, rather than mentioning one thing and getting sucked in.

I'm curious to hear you say, however, that the only reason to not mention something you find scummy is to improve your image. Among other reasons:

You?

Irony is on top, of course.  Below that, there's no real order, but Pandar (sidelining), Ottofar (not contributing), Archangel (one post), MBP (gut more than anything), and you (keep reading) are on my watch list.  It's been mentioned, but you went from thinking Zathras was town and declaring him scum in the space of one post- OMGUS indeed.

Why so concerned about your image, Toaster? You didn't mention any of this until questioned about it. In fact, the only things you did mention was how scummy I was and how not-so-scummy Jokerman was. Curious.

Apples and oranges.  You didn't mention something you felt was scummy about someone you were already in the process of attacking.  I didn't mention vague suspicions I had of other people because they weren't strong enough on their own to merit bringing them out by themselves.  Since someone prompted me for them, I obliged.   The only reason Joker got any extra attention there is because he is the one who asked.

I see what he said, and it just struck me with a sense of finality, like that he was done with you and wanted to move on.  I guess not, given that he kept on you.  I'd like to see him on someone besides you, though.

This still doesn't explain why the precise wording of my statements is the key to my scumminess, while you're just going with a "general feeling" about MBP's. A general feeling that ignores the actual meaning of those particular words, I might add.

Actual meaning?  I'm going on my interpretation of them, and what that is is right there in the quote.

I read into you and see scum.  I read into him and don't get anything definite; hence why I asked him what he planned to do next.  He didn't directly answer, but since he laid back into you I can guess as to what that answer was.

I'll grant you that I'm not usually this aggressive this early.  However, I don't usually get strong suspicions this early, either.  I usually don't find myself firmly committing anywhere until D2.

Oh, I think it goes far deeper than that. You've repeatedly and predictably done two things this game, Toaster- tunnel me and obliquely defend Jokerman.

Spoiler: Softballing the Joker (click to show/hide)

In your own words, RVS is over, and we're full-throttle scumhunting. Your refusal to participate in RVS is scummy on its own, but even scummier is your saying that lurking is OK (yes, you did, see above). You a) actively refused to consider a cultist faction until called up on it; b) think town lurking is not scummy; c) think RVS is useless, even if it brought up the first interesting conversation of the game; and d) have failed to do anything useful for town whatsoever.  You are scum. If pressed for details, I'd guess of the cultist kind.

That's an interesting leap there.  How do you figure cultist?

Zathras:  Interesting view on the cult possibility.  It has merit, but it's idle speculation for today.

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.  I doubt he and IronyOwl are on the same team, so that makes me think he's more likely to be town, since I think IO is scum.

Jokerman:

Toaster:

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.

Thank you for actually realizing that.
As to your question: IronyOwl for sure, and maybe Pandar. I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes. You?

Irony is on top, of course.  Below that, there's no real order, but Pandar (sidelining), Ottofar (not contributing), Archangel (one post), MBP (gut more than anything), and you (keep reading) are on my watch list.  It's been mentioned, but you went from thinking Zathras was town and declaring him scum in the space of one post- OMGUS indeed.


Zathras:

Toaster: aside from lurking during RVS, do you think there's merit in the rest of my case on Jokerman, that he is right when saying lurkers should be ignored "until you are completely convinced all the active players are town", his disingenuous thought that there's "town+scum and mmmaybe a 3rd party" as factions, his brand new OMGUS, his attempt to get me to go away until D2, and so on? It's not his lurking why I'm on his case. What say you? Of the two of us, who's scummier?

The reversal of his opinion of you leaves me scratching my head.  Most of the others don't really bug me, but in general, he bugs me more than you.

You've made no acknowledgement of his hypocrisy (perhaps you were too busy chainsaw defending Jokerman to remember), given him only a single counterargument to his adamant insistence on anti-town behavior being perfectly nonscummy, and even when he blatantly OMGUSes you simply say you're "scratching your head" over him. Why would he do that? How strange, how strange. Oh well, we'll just add him to the "watch list" and leave it at that.

I deny the defending charge; just because I think you're scum doesn't mean I think he isn't.  I'm not looking for teams here- I'm looking at individuals, and right now, you stick out like a sore thumb.  What do you want from me- to stop voting you and vote him instead?  I'm not going to base my vote off other people's arguments when I have solid suspicions of my own.

[Toaster]

It's awfully early for teams.  Individually, who strikes you as the scummiest of those three?  Out of everyone?

Currently Jokerman. But that's probably due to the contradictions he's yet to fully explain and the sudden "Zathras is scum" move he pulled.

Ok.  What about everyone else?

[Argembarger]

Argenbarger: If you were scum, and your role was to know ahead of time that you were scum, and be able to pick the other scum roles, what roles would you have picked for two scum buddies and why?

People who ignore my questions deserve even more questions.

Argembarger, give your top three scum picks.

I didn't notice the first question. Sorry dude! But it's totally fair for you to respond with more.

Anyway,

Question 1: If I were scum, and able to pick roles for the other scum, well, I'd probably make up completely unstoppable roles, like an anti-death-miller vigilante and a lynchproof war veteran scumdoctor. But restricted to really basic roles, I'd go with scumvigilante and scumdoctor... and even that would probably be really overpowering for scum and not allowed >_<...
Suffice it to say I would want some kind of protection role and some kind of killing/disabling role.

Question 2: Right now my top 3 scumpicks are, in no particular order,

Pandarsenic, because he's doing some kind of Information Instead Of Analysis dance and doesn't really seem to be hunting for scum. According to the LurkerTracker, he hasn't used red text at all for the whole game so far.

Jokerman, because he's starting to crack under Zath's pressure, as illustrated by blatant OMGUS earlier.

NativeForeigner is probably the least scummy on my top 3, because he's starting to focus on people other than Org and doing some scumhunting, but I'm gonna keep an eye on him for a little bit longer.

Otherwise, I'd really love to see Irony or Zath confirmed/flipped; it'd be very enlightening.

Pandar, how about your top 3 scumpicks?

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Hello people, just passing by to say hi. just made the mistake of buying Fallout new vegas and it's currently eating my soul (the good kind of soul eating, if you are wondering). I should be more present tommorow.

Also, even if my vote is not needed that extension would be godsend

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Wow, extension should be the bolded word. Guess it's sleep time for me

[Mr.Person]

Just stopping by to say that when I reread, I'm more certain than ever that Jokerman is scum. Toodle-loo!

[NativeForeigner]

People need to stop "just stopping by" >_>.

Just stopping by to say that when I reread, I'm more certain than ever that Jokerman is scum. Toodle-loo!

Could you elaborate on this, please?

[Archangel]

Archangel:  Eagerly awaiting the results of your reread.  So we know in the future, are you still on your "one post a day" time schedule?

Yep.

Archangel, you're heavily lurking. Please give your opinions on the scumminess of everybody.

Jokerman feels scummy to me, but I'm hesitant to act on it until I've reread, especially as I don't have anything, whether gut feeling or evidence-based opinion, about anyone else.

What a safe, effortless answer. I don't consider it to be a real response to the question.

It says everybody, not just Jokerman. It sounds like you're parroting Zathras, especially when you brought up Joker's contradictions which Zathras has quite a few times. However, since you're in the process of rereading, it could be possible that you missed it. Could you please give a more complete answer to the question?

No, I'd read the thread, I just felt like pointing out that blatant contradiction that hadn't yet been mentioned specifically.

I know I'm being useless, but at the moment I'm just not up to doing more. Anyway, my current leanings:
I think Zathras is right about Jokerman and Joker should be lynched.
Org is worrying me because he's being abnormally quiet and seems to be being deliberately useless.
I've got an iffy feeling about Toaster and Puppet.
Pandar's apparent defense of Org (Here) is suspicious.
I'm neutral about everyone else, including, despite my agreement with him, Zath.


Toaster and Puppet, please restate you cases against IronyOwl.

[Pandarsenic]

Pandarsenic:

Mu. I don't have a scumteam. If I had one, I'd like to be cult again so I could recruit as I please.

Alright, but who would you most want with a powerful role?

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Additionally, this seems to imply you were content to simply ignore them. Why?

At the time I was of the opinion that they were flailing at each other over semantics and other such bullshit. However, over time, they've solidified their arguments.

My greatest single suspicion is IronyOwl for his general grouping of him and Zathras, which I find odd. I feel like he's trying to have it be blatant for some reason.

Oh, and I'd most want myself as a powerful role. Duh.

[Pandarsenic]

EBWOP: Wait a goddamn second. Archangel, that isn't... I don't... really? You're demanding someone say what they already have as your reason for voting them?

That's... I don't... seriously? IronyOwl, I want you to tell me why you kept grouping yourself and Zathras against Jokerman.

As painfully brief as that vote was, Unvote IronyOwl, vote Archangel, because that is unacceptable. Srsly? You sure you read what he posted before Archy?

[Archangel]

EBWOP: Wait a goddamn second. Archangel, that isn't... I don't... really? You're demanding someone say what they already have as your reason for voting them?

That's... I don't... seriously? IronyOwl, I want you to tell me why you kept grouping yourself and Zathras against Jokerman.

As painfully brief as that vote was, Unvote IronyOwl, vote Archangel, because that is unacceptable. Srsly? You sure you read what he posted before Archy?

Are you talking about Org? Have you read what he's said? It boils down to "Fuck off I'm better than you" and "I'm not really gonna do or say anything, so there!"

As for my vote, I'm asking Toaster and Puppet to state their reasons so that I can compare them with what's actually said; I've a feeling of disquiet about the two; red text draws the eye; and a vote will encourage MBP to answer.

But really, since I'm trying to decide whether someone is scummy or not, why've you got a problem? Is it because I'm suspicious of your buddy? And did you not notice my post, despite there being an hour between it and yours? Why did you come out of lurking just to repeat others' arguments and then bandwagon on Irony? Is it, perhaps, because you are scum?

I think it is. Toaster and Puppet have already vote for Irony, Toaster giving, amongst others, exactly the same reason you did. I'm sorely tempted to change my vote now, however I'll wait until MBP has responded to my question.

[Org]

Nice deflection.

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
Zathras - Jokerman-EXE,
Pandarsenic - IronyOwl,
Org -
Ottofar -
Argembarger -
Toaster -
Archangel - Nirur Torir,
MysteriousBluePuppet - Ottofar, Archangel,
IronyOwl - Toaster, MysteriousBluePuppet, Pandarsenic,
Jokerman-EXE - Zathras, Mr.Person,
NativeForeigner -
Nirur Torir - Org,
Mr.Person -

Not Voting - NativeForeigner, Argembarger,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Thursday 9 PM Central. 6 Extensions Requested.

Day Extended To Monday 9 PM Central.

[Argembarger]

EBWOP: Wait a goddamn second. Archangel, that isn't... I don't... really? You're demanding someone say what they already have as your reason for voting them?

That's... I don't... seriously? IronyOwl, I want you to tell me why you kept grouping yourself and Zathras against Jokerman.

As painfully brief as that vote was, Unvote IronyOwl, vote Archangel, because that is unacceptable. Srsly? You sure you read what he posted before Archy?

Are you talking about Org? Have you read what he's said? It boils down to "Fuck off I'm better than you" and "I'm not really gonna do or say anything, so there!"

I don't think he's talking about Org, Archangel. I think he's referring to

Toaster and Puppet, please restate you cases against IronyOwl.

which is you placing a vote on MBP, for no reason, and then telling them to tell you what they've already said, a lot, throughout the entire thread.

Which is really really scummy... And Org is correct, you completely deflected it.

Vote Archangel

However, Pandar, it'd be awesome if you could finish answering my question directed at you. Apparantly IronyOwl and Archangel are your top two right now, who is the third and why?

[Pandarsenic]

You'll get two and like it.

(I don't have a particular third. Deal with it.)