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[NativeForeigner]

Message from Jokerman: He won't be posting tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Pandarsenic]

Repeat them or link them for me?

Also:

If you happen to get on B12 tonight, let BYOR know I probably won't be posting tonight/tomorrow morning. I don't want Zathras and them to freak on me "lurking."

This is a direct transcription of the text I was sent, passed along for the benefit of all.

PPE: Ninja'd, derp.

[Toaster]

Jokerman:

Toaster:

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.

Thank you for actually realizing that.
As to your question: IronyOwl for sure, and maybe Pandar. I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes. You?

Irony is on top, of course.  Below that, there's no real order, but Pandar (sidelining), Ottofar (not contributing), Archangel (one post), MBP (gut more than anything), and you (keep reading) are on my watch list.  It's been mentioned, but you went from thinking Zathras was town and declaring him scum in the space of one post- OMGUS indeed.


Zathras:

Toaster: aside from lurking during RVS, do you think there's merit in the rest of my case on Jokerman, that he is right when saying lurkers should be ignored "until you are completely convinced all the active players are town", his disingenuous thought that there's "town+scum and mmmaybe a 3rd party" as factions, his brand new OMGUS, his attempt to get me to go away until D2, and so on? It's not his lurking why I'm on his case. What say you? Of the two of us, who's scummier?

The reversal of his opinion of you leaves me scratching my head.  Most of the others don't really bug me, but in general, he bugs me more than you.


NativeForeigner:

We could either have an Irony, Zathras team, given Irony's slight buddying and Zathras potential distancing, or Joker could be scum and Irony simply rooting Zathras on.

It's awfully early for teams.  Individually, who strikes you as the scummiest of those three?  Out of everyone?


IronyOwl:

IronyOwl:

As far as you questioning your buddying, I wouldn't have mentioned the second example were it not for the first- it's more establishing an association.  The third one, like I said, is setting up a false "us vs them," where you push Jokerman away from you and pull Zathras toward you.

So mentioning his name is buddying, but only when I've buddied him earlier. Gotcha.

Let's just simplify this: Rephrase the information the way I would have put it if I hadn't been trying to establish connections and pose false dilemmas. Let's get the nonscummy version up there for comparison.

It's just another example of establishing a connection.

Rephrase?  Fair enough. Original:

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Rephrase:

"Do you think any of the three of us are scummy?  What's your take on this nonsense situation?"

See the difference?  There's no grouping here- a simple request for opinion.

If it's any consolation, I tried to deliberately not mention how scummy it was that Jokerman wanted to be all reasonable now.

So you didn't mention something you saw as a scumtell so as to improve your own image?  That's very townie behavior! [/sarcasm]

Jesus, you really want me lynched, don't you? I didn't want to step on Zath's toes, as I've mentioned previously. Where did I mention my image?

You didn't use the word, but right in the first quote- you deliberately didn't mention something you thought scummy.  Why wouldn't you do that?  The only reason I see is that you don't want to draw more attention to your buddying.

You are the man for now Irony.  If you want to throw back the quotes with the reason why for you it's not buddying go ahead, but i'm certain people here already got their opinion on it. If you want to be actually usefull, go right ahead, i'll be checking you go.

What is this bolded part? Is it some kind of veiled threat? You seem to be saying "go ahead and defend yourself but I'm sure several people have already made up their minds regardless of what you say."

Toaster, you seem to be our resident wording-minutiae-scum-everywhere expert, what do you make of this? Is it a veiled attempt to get people to think of me as scum?

What I read from this is MBP saying "I think you're scum, ok bye now."  He's not trying to push his view on anyone else, and there's a sense of conclusion to his attack line on you.

That's backwards; he says he's certain others have already made up their minds, but if I want to defend myself or be useful he'll be right there checking up on me. For the amount of attention you've paid to my wording, and the dire implications you've drawn from them, you seem awfully careless and carefree with MBP's. Why?

I find it noteworthy that I've never seen you this aggressive this early, Toaster. Are you eager for an opportunity or simply desperate to defend your scumbuddy?

I see what he said, and it just struck me with a sense of finality, like that he was done with you and wanted to move on.  I guess not, given that he kept on you.  I'd like to see him on someone besides you, though.

As far as MBP goes, I've got a couple question marks on him.   I don't have specific questions for him, but I'll be reading his posts closely.

I'll grant you that I'm not usually this aggressive this early.  However, I don't usually get strong suspicions this early, either.  I usually don't find myself firmly committing anywhere until D2.



PPE:  Way to give each other your cell numbers, or whatever.

[NativeForeigner]

If you happen to get on B12 tonight, let BYOR know I probably won't be posting tonight/tomorrow morning. I don't want Zathras and them to freak on me "lurking."

This is a direct transcription of the text I was sent, passed along for the benefit of all.

PPE: Ninja'd, derp.

Exact text I got.

[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner:

We could either have an Irony, Zathras team, given Irony's slight buddying and Zathras potential distancing, or Joker could be scum and Irony simply rooting Zathras on.

It's awfully early for teams.  Individually, who strikes you as the scummiest of those three?  Out of everyone?

Currently Jokerman. But that's probably due to the contradictions he's yet to fully explain and the sudden "Zathras is scum" move he pulled.

PPE:  Way to give each other your cell numbers, or whatever.

I've had both Joker's and Pandar's numbers for quite a while now. Like, a few years.

[Zathras]

If you happen to get on B12 tonight, let BYOR know I probably won't be posting tonight/tomorrow morning. I don't want Zathras and them to freak on me "lurking."

Oh how very convenient. So you do plan to spend the rest of D1 in the shadows, cowering in a dark corner? And you of course think that I shouldn't press you unless I'm "completely convinced everyone else is town", right? No.

Yeah, I know we all have real lives and stuff to do, so as a courtesy to you, I ask for an extension, to give you a chance to do what you have to do, and then come back and address the multiple points pending about you. Hell, it's not like we're close to a consensus or a maximally scummy target has been found anyway, so an extension is good and would probably have been requested anyway, and now we know you'll be back tomorrow afternoon to grace us with your wisdom, yes?


A quick summary on Jokerman, for those catching up.

1) When asked about possible factions, he said "we have a Survivor, scum and town (obviously), and mmmmmmaybe a third-party like an Exterminator-type thing"[1]; when pressed, he fell into contradiction #1:"There are probably multiple third parties. I'd be willing to bet on that."[2]. Why the sudden willingness to bet?

2) Lurking is a good scum strategy, and he agrees ("Yes, lurking is detrimental to town"[3]), but his stance on people smoking lurkers out? "If you're completely convinced that all the active players are town, then I can see going after lurkers." (his emphasis)[4] When pressed on this, he added "I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all."[5] Detrimental for town, but nothing inherently scummy about it at all, eh?

3) Contradictions #2&3: "I never said anything about ignoring lurkers." and "I'm not even defending lurking!" [6]. Yes, you did, and yes, you are. You said not to go after them unless you are "completely convinced everyone else is town", that's ignoring them; you said there was "nothing inherently scummy about it", that's defending it. This is a glaring contradiction, the kind only uttered by scum trying to squirm out of a hole of their own making.

4) He actively asked me to go away and stop badgering him: "I think it would be better to focus on pulling other players into the game, and we can revisit this argument D2, when lurking becomes a bigger thing and when it might make more sense to us. Does that sound reasonable?"[7] adding in that same post "it's not like I just ignore the game until D2. I'm here and ready to play". When I refuse to go away, he proceeds to ignore the game until D2, not being ready to play, and not being here. Except for one last bit:

5) The most blatant OMGUS I've ever seen. "For one thing, Zathras is scum."[8], after saying in his immediately previous post: "One thing that I have decided on is that you don't feel like scum right now."[9] Words can't express how utterly scummy this is. [Uhm, since that red text wasn't in forum quote form, I unvote to avoid misunderstandings]


Note that at no point did I accuse him of lurking or called him scum for his questionable (but not inherently scummy in him) practice of trying to avoid RVS. I accuse him of being scum for proposing others act in an anti-town manner, for falling into multiple contradictions under pressure, for trying to shoo me away when found out, for running away when that failed, and for an infantile OMGUS. He cracked under the pressure, and he cracked scum.


Now that I have laid out my case, I ask the opinion of others: does this look like a scum to you? Jokerman, if it was someone else playing like this, would you think they were scum?

Please come back and face the music. We'll wait until you are done with your move or whatever, but show up before the end of the day, or you're a coward.

Mod: request extension, and votecount, please.

[Pandarsenic]

Zathras, I'm not happy about it either, I'll  second that extension, but as far as I can tell HE'S FLIPPING MOVING SOMEWHERE WHAT DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO DO?

[Zathras]

Hey, I'm not giving him shit about that; as I said, we all have lives and whatnot, so the extension is a courtesy so he can get done whatever he needs to get done, and then come back and face the music. Let him move, leisurely, and then play the game, sure, but do it; I would only give him shit for that if he used one as an excuse to not do the other, but that's not (yet) the case, yes?

How about you, though? Are you moving somewhere? I have seen questions for you gone unanswered (no, I won't look them up for you: do your own homework), and you've contributed less than Org and asked nothing useful from anyone. This is, in my opinion, more like scum-Pandar than town-Pandar, so how about you get involved with the hunting, the answering and the questioning, yes? Otherwise, you're next on the chopping block.

[Archangel]

I second third that extension, as I'm going back to reread the thread, because I've not actually looked at with scumhunting in mind. However, a few of things first:

God DAMN it.

For one thing, Zathras is scum. You're so jumpy, dude, it's appalling. I even posted saying that I wouldn't be around all day, because I'm in the process of moving back and forth from my home and my dorm. Yet you post twice, with nothing but an erroneous statement? Come on, you're smart enough to know the difference between a general statement about my playstyle and a one-time situation in which I'm not at my computer for less than 24 hours. Or are you?

Toaster:

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.

Thank you for actually realizing that.
As to your question: IronyOwl for sure, and maybe Pandar. I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes. You?

Mr.P: Yes, I absolutely see the merit of his argument, and sure, I can see that there might be a bit of truth in it. What I don't think, however, is that he's right - because he's not. What he's doing is tunneling (to the max, seriously), and while I think he has a few points, he's ignoring what I'm saying and refusing to acknowledge that maybe I've got a few points too. Which I find to be scummy.

Jokerman is contradicting himself within this post, if I'm correct in thinking that he's talking about who he's suspicious of:

Zathras is scum.

I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes.

Also, Org, where are you? You've been online since the game started and there have been questions directed aimed at you, but you haven't posted at all. It's not like you.

I honestly can't tell, were you being sarcastic here?

No, I was not. I also wasn't being hypocritical in asking, or at least not very. I asked this question in this manner because he always posts before me. The other two points were, at the time, true of him but not of me. I believe I have been asked only one question, which I am about to answer as best, whereas he has been asked several and ignored quite a few of them. However, I don't feel he's scummy at this time, so unvote.

Archangel, you're heavily lurking. Please give your opinions on the scumminess of everybody.

Jokerman feels scummy to me, but I'm hesitant to act on it until I've reread, especially as I don't have anything, whether gut feeling or evidence-based opinion, about anyone else.

[Toaster]

Archangel:  Eagerly awaiting the results of your reread.  So we know in the future, are you still on your "one post a day" time schedule?

I'll fourth the extension.


Also, everyone:  I'm going on a trip from Friday to sometime Monday.  I'll try to keep up via phone, but don't expect a lot out of me while I'm gone.

[Ottofar]

Yeah.

I'm not gonna be here either from Friday to Sunday.

I'm also extremely tired right now.

And the electricity is playing it's tricks again.

[Nirur Torir]

Extension request.

Archangel, you're heavily lurking. Please give your opinions on the scumminess of everybody.

Jokerman feels scummy to me, but I'm hesitant to act on it until I've reread, especially as I don't have anything, whether gut feeling or evidence-based opinion, about anyone else.

What a safe, effortless answer. I don't consider it to be a real response to the question.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Extend.

Can someone post the questions in a list so I can answer them when I have a chance without having to hunt them down? Thanks.

@Whomever: Native is my roommate and I've known Pandar for over three years now. Just sayin'.

PFP

[NativeForeigner]

Extension request.

Archangel, you're heavily lurking. Please give your opinions on the scumminess of everybody.

Jokerman feels scummy to me, but I'm hesitant to act on it until I've reread, especially as I don't have anything, whether gut feeling or evidence-based opinion, about anyone else.

What a safe, effortless answer. I don't consider it to be a real response to the question.

It says everybody, not just Jokerman. It sounds like you're parroting Zathras, especially when you brought up Joker's contradictions which Zathras has quite a few times. However, since you're in the process of rereading, it could be possible that you missed it. Could you please give a more complete answer to the question?

[IronyOwl]

Pandarsenic:

Mu. I don't have a scumteam. If I had one, I'd like to be cult again so I could recruit as I please.

Alright, but who would you most want with a powerful role?

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Additionally, this seems to imply you were content to simply ignore them. Why?

Spoiler: Jokerman Questions (click to show/hide)

Jokerman[/color], if you find jumpiness to be scummy, why are you yourself so jumpy? Also, if Zathra's argument is true, how is it not right? That makes no sense.

For one thing, Zathras is scum. You're so jumpy, dude, it's appalling.

As to your question: IronyOwl for sure, and maybe Pandar. I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes.

So I'm certainly scum, but you're voting for Zathras, even though that's just a well-developed feeling. Why?

God DAMN it. For one thing, Zathras is scum. You're so jumpy, dude, it's appalling.

God DAMN it! Can you spell OMGUS?! Wow. That was like the one scumtell you hadn't dropped yet. I thought you said, in your very last post, "One thing that I have decided on is that you don't feel like scum right now." Either you have a lot of new evidence to change your mind, or it's total OMGUS, yes?

Yet you post twice, with nothing but an erroneous statement?

Please point out this erroneous statement of which you speak, and how I said nothing but it. While you're there, please show how I'm ignoring all the other players and therefore tunneling on you. There's a difference between tunneling and not letting go of the rod when you've caught a scum.

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.

Thank you for actually realizing that.

Now you're being disingenuous. It's not lurking during RVS what I find scummy about you. It's your numerous contradictory statements (want me to link them?), your saying that lurking is OK, that we shouldn't look for lurkers, but then that I should go look for lurkers and leave you alone, and so on. You have professed anti-town actions as viable, contradicted yourself numerous times, and been very panicky. But you seem to think Toaster knows what's going on, so let's ask him:

God DAMN it. For one thing, Zathras is scum. You're so jumpy, dude, it's appalling.

God DAMN it! Can you spell OMGUS?! Wow. That was like the one scumtell you hadn't dropped yet. I thought you said, in your very last post, "One thing that I have decided on is that you don't feel like scum right now." Either you have a lot of new evidence to change your mind, or it's total OMGUS, yes?

Zathras pulls up a strong point here, Jokerman. What made you suddenly change your mind from feeling like Zathras isn't scum to voting him? Is it just a reactive vote to his constant pushing or are you cracking under pressure? Explain yourself, I'll feel better about lynching scum than I will about lynching Org.

IronyOwl:

IronyOwl:

As far as you questioning your buddying, I wouldn't have mentioned the second example were it not for the first- it's more establishing an association.  The third one, like I said, is setting up a false "us vs them," where you push Jokerman away from you and pull Zathras toward you.

So mentioning his name is buddying, but only when I've buddied him earlier. Gotcha.

It's just another example of establishing a connection.

This doesn't refute my point. You consider mentioning both our names in the same sentence to be "establishing a connection."

Rephrase?  Fair enough. Original:

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Rephrase:

"Do you think any of the three of us are scummy?  What's your take on this nonsense situation?"

See the difference?  There's no grouping here- a simple request for opinion.

There is a connection- you're lumping all three of us together, and creating the false dilemma that if Jokerman's not scummy, none of us are.

You didn't use the word, but right in the first quote- you deliberately didn't mention something you thought scummy.  Why wouldn't you do that?  The only reason I see is that you don't want to draw more attention to your buddying.

As I've stated, I didn't want to step on Zathras' toes by going after the same guy for the same reasons. I agree I should have gone all in or held out, rather than mentioning one thing and getting sucked in.

I'm curious to hear you say, however, that the only reason to not mention something you find scummy is to improve your image. Among other reasons:

You?

Irony is on top, of course.  Below that, there's no real order, but Pandar (sidelining), Ottofar (not contributing), Archangel (one post), MBP (gut more than anything), and you (keep reading) are on my watch list.  It's been mentioned, but you went from thinking Zathras was town and declaring him scum in the space of one post- OMGUS indeed.

Why so concerned about your image, Toaster? You didn't mention any of this until questioned about it. In fact, the only things you did mention was how scummy I was and how not-so-scummy Jokerman was. Curious.

You are the man for now Irony.  If you want to throw back the quotes with the reason why for you it's not buddying go ahead, but i'm certain people here already got their opinion on it. If you want to be actually usefull, go right ahead, i'll be checking you go.

What is this bolded part? Is it some kind of veiled threat? You seem to be saying "go ahead and defend yourself but I'm sure several people have already made up their minds regardless of what you say."

What I read from this is MBP saying "I think you're scum, ok bye now."  He's not trying to push his view on anyone else, and there's a sense of conclusion to his attack line on you.

That's backwards; he says he's certain others have already made up their minds, but if I want to defend myself or be useful he'll be right there checking up on me. For the amount of attention you've paid to my wording, and the dire implications you've drawn from them, you seem awfully careless and carefree with MBP's. Why?

I see what he said, and it just struck me with a sense of finality, like that he was done with you and wanted to move on.  I guess not, given that he kept on you.  I'd like to see him on someone besides you, though.

This still doesn't explain why the precise wording of my statements is the key to my scumminess, while you're just going with a "general feeling" about MBP's. A general feeling that ignores the actual meaning of those particular words, I might add.

I'll grant you that I'm not usually this aggressive this early.  However, I don't usually get strong suspicions this early, either.  I usually don't find myself firmly committing anywhere until D2.

Oh, I think it goes far deeper than that. You've repeatedly and predictably done two things this game, Toaster- tunnel me and obliquely defend Jokerman.

Spoiler: Softballing the Joker (click to show/hide)

In your own words, RVS is over, and we're full-throttle scumhunting. Your refusal to participate in RVS is scummy on its own, but even scummier is your saying that lurking is OK (yes, you did, see above). You a) actively refused to consider a cultist faction until called up on it; b) think town lurking is not scummy; c) think RVS is useless, even if it brought up the first interesting conversation of the game; and d) have failed to do anything useful for town whatsoever.  You are scum. If pressed for details, I'd guess of the cultist kind.

That's an interesting leap there.  How do you figure cultist?

Zathras:  Interesting view on the cult possibility.  It has merit, but it's idle speculation for today.

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.  I doubt he and IronyOwl are on the same team, so that makes me think he's more likely to be town, since I think IO is scum.

Jokerman:

Toaster:

As for your Jokerman question... well, he always lurks during RVS.  This is the most I've seen out of him in the first 48 hours of any game I can remember.  I've given him hell for it in the past, and it never amounted to much.  It's a bit scummy, but it's also firmly in his meta.

Thank you for actually realizing that.
As to your question: IronyOwl for sure, and maybe Pandar. I would say Zathras, though it's not really much beyond a feeling that's developing as time goes. You?

Irony is on top, of course.  Below that, there's no real order, but Pandar (sidelining), Ottofar (not contributing), Archangel (one post), MBP (gut more than anything), and you (keep reading) are on my watch list.  It's been mentioned, but you went from thinking Zathras was town and declaring him scum in the space of one post- OMGUS indeed.


Zathras:

Toaster: aside from lurking during RVS, do you think there's merit in the rest of my case on Jokerman, that he is right when saying lurkers should be ignored "until you are completely convinced all the active players are town", his disingenuous thought that there's "town+scum and mmmaybe a 3rd party" as factions, his brand new OMGUS, his attempt to get me to go away until D2, and so on? It's not his lurking why I'm on his case. What say you? Of the two of us, who's scummier?

The reversal of his opinion of you leaves me scratching my head.  Most of the others don't really bug me, but in general, he bugs me more than you.

You've made no acknowledgement of his hypocrisy (perhaps you were too busy chainsaw defending Jokerman to remember), given him only a single counterargument to his adamant insistence on anti-town behavior being perfectly nonscummy, and even when he blatantly OMGUSes you simply say you're "scratching your head" over him. Why would he do that? How strange, how strange. Oh well, we'll just add him to the "watch list" and leave it at that.