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[Zathras]

Why does Jetsquirrel seem town to you? [...] Why have you spared Jetsquirrel [the] meaningless blue text?

In a nutshell, because I haven't seen any damning scumtells from him. He's obviously a noob, and as you've said, noobtells make scumtells harder to assess. But nothing he has said so far strikes me as particularly scummy. Since I don't have many meaningful questions for him (except what I've asked others), I haven't actually pointed at him. But you're right: I should.

JetSquirrel: What are your thoughts on the IronyOwl/Eduren spat? Who are your top scumpicks as of now? What do you think of Person and Org lurking even more than you?

Something smells funny about that. Could it possibly be one scum buddy attempting to pull his dead weight scum buddy into the game so that the dead weight can avoid accusations of lurking? Something very interesting is going on here. And let's not forget the two of you are both voting me for precisely the same reasons, even so far as Jetsquirrel summarizing your arguments.

If the first was right, I'd be telling him "post" or asking him more direct questions (as you suggested earlier), rather than highlighting his presence to others or asking for their assessment. As for the second, I think my analysis is compelling and persuasive, so I can't fault others for agreeing with it -- it's after all what I've asked them to do. But yeah, people buddying me is one of my blind spots; it bit me hard in VM3, and I said I would keep an eye out for it. Thank you for reminding me that I haven't. I'll do better.

What I refer to is this:

Spoiler: from VM3 post-game discussion (click to show/hide)

On another note, if I may make a suggestion: you (Zathras) should keep more of an eye on being buddied.  It's human nature to think more highly of people that think like you and it's a dangerous trap to fall into (especially in Mafia ).  Of course, sometimes you get townies that really do agree with you, but it's still something to keep in the back of your mind.

True, and I'll keep an eye for it. It's hard not to think highly of people enlightened enough to see the TRUTH that are the pearls of wisdom emanating from my fingertips, especially after they lovingly embrace the silliness and limericking...

But yeah, point taken.

So, thanks for the remainder. JetSquirrel, are you buddying me, or merely agreeing with the unvarnished truth that is my impeccable analysis?

Allow me to formally suspect you, Zathras, with meaningless blue text.

Knock yourself out.

Say something, Orgdammit, or the vote stays until I want something out of someone else.

While I agree with the sentiment (get in here, Org, dammit), I feel it necessary to point out that you're not actually asking him a question. (Org, reminder: I asked you some here.)

[IronyOwl]

-You're a rampant and unabashed hypocrite. Specifically, after having done even less yourself, you feel my lack of contribution means that I'm scum.

In the meantime, are you denying being a hypocrite now? You didn't seem to bother earlier.

The act of calling me a hypocrite is inherently deflection. But at the same time, I deny any hypocrisy on my part.

It's "inherently" deflection? Meaning the specifics of, say, whether or not it's correct are irrelevant?

You claim, that by being useless myself, that it is hypocritical for me to call you useless. Where this falls apart is the fact that I am not accusing you of being useless.

Spoiler: Let's Check On That (click to show/hide)

This is, as I stated before, my reason for voting you (as far as Day 1 is concerned)

And I feel that your vote was doing nothing. First lets examine the rationale you gave me for voting Mr.Person. You claim that there is a question you want answering. Which is it? It couldn't be this one (your original reason to vote him), he had answered that very quickly. So it must be this one. Mr.Person did indeed not respond to it, but you didn't seem to care much. You didn't make it an issue, let alone mention it again until today. That's odd. You didn't care about it yesterday, but you do today! The only way I feel that this can be seen is that you had no reasons yesterday to leave your vote on Person and any reasons you claim today are fabrications.

Now, even if you were voting Mr.Person for the reasons that you claimed, I don't see why your vote should have been there. As you stated, I was looking like the scummiest person in the game to you. Don't you think that that warrants a vote? Don't you think that a vote on your scumpick would have been more useful than getting the answer to a question that didn't really matter?

In this, I am not claiming your uselessness. I am claiming that you had left your vote on Mr.Person for no legitimate reason yesterday, in order to avoid really scumhunting. You consciously used FoSes to cast suspicion without having to put yourself into the spotlight.

D1: He doesn't use his vote like a townie might, instead he forgets about it and solely uses FoSes to cast suspicion. I believe that he wasn't showing any aggression and that any attempts at finding scum were simply fake.

So? If I was the scummiest person yesterday why didn't you VOTE me. You were just casting suspicion and not pushing or scumhunting. That's why you're scum.

I think that IronyOwls "focus" on Criptfeind was really weak. He asked him some prodding questions but didn't actually try to determine alignment. This is why I questioned him on his Person vote, because I felt that if his suspicion of Cript was legitimate, he would have transferred his vote.

It's not so much who you are voting, but who you're not. The only thing you've done today is question Criptfeind. You have done nothing useful with your vote and are content to throw FoSes at people instead of scumhunting.

Not only do you mention I'm useless almost every post, the only other premise you have depends on it. If I wasn't being useless with my Person vote, there's no reason to think it's unusual. You entire argument is, directly or indirectly, that I am useless and therefore scum.

Feel free to show me where I've declined to explain why your accusations are bullshit.

Gladly. Here you dismiss my accusations by analyzing my posting history.

I suppose I could have elaborated, but I thought it was common sense.

If your argument depends on something being scummy, and you exhibit this trait moreso than the subject, there's really only 3 options:

1. You are more obviously scum than the target, and should be lynched prior to them.
2. The rules apply differently to you
3. You don't care about basic logic and are merely looking for an excuse.

If your entire argument is "IronyOwl is useless and therefore scum" (which it is), and you yourself are even worse, you are clearly my less adept compatriot and should be lynched as well. Anything else and you're just grasping for an excuse, and should therefore be lynched anyway.

And not only that, but every time you do this (which is a lot):

What is your obsession with that vote? Your chainsaw was too obvious, so now you've got to keep making a big deal of it?

You are dismissing my accusations as me just me chainsawing for Mr.Person. What you are doing is attacking my credibility in order to avoid actually refuting my accusations.

Your stated reason is garbage, so I'm trying to figure out what your actual reason is. Chainsawing Mr.Person seems like a good theory, since you jumped on something that wasn't otherwise particularly noteworthy.

As far as your accusations go, the only times I've declined to refute them is when I didn't realize I had to explain the blindingly obvious. Feel free to point out any further issues that need to be addressed in painstaking detail.

But lets take a quick look at what you have done Day 2. You have been voting me ever since I voted you today.

As far as I can tell, these are your reasons.

-You're obsessed with votes. Specifically, leaving my vote on Mr.Person is half of the reason you're convinced I'm scum.

-You're a rampant and unabashed hypocrite. Specifically, after having done even less yourself, you feel my lack of contribution means that I'm scum.

I will agree with you on the first one, half of my reasons for voting for you are your actions Day1. But why does that make me scum?

Because they're terrible. Town doesn't grab a random excuse and latch onto it in defiance of common sense. You have. The fact that one of the potential targets you could have gone after includes yourself only makes it more obvious that you have no interest in finding scum.

And I just showed you that my hypocrisy is just in your imagination.

No, I showed you that you're a liar who can't read.

So why am I scum again? You seem so convinced that I am scum, but I don't see any overwhelming evidence. All you've done today is to defend yourself and deflect onto me.

More hypocrisy. You want "overwhelming evidence" after calling me scum for not moving my vote as you wished.

[Jim Groovester]

Stuff

So why did you wait for me to prod you before you did your due diligence and fill the gap in your issuance of meaningless blue text? Jetsquirrel has said plenty to pick apart; you didn't need to wait for my prodding to go after him if you were interested in him as a target. You called him to post repeatedly over the course of the game. Why did you never follow up on it, even after he posted?

In a nutshell, because I haven't seen any damning scumtells from him. He's obviously a noob, and as you've said, noobtells make scumtells harder to assess. But nothing he has said so far strikes me as particularly scummy.

Not even the rampant buddying? The blatant and unconcealed OMGUS? The parroting of everybody else? His malformed suspicions of me? His lack of a vote yesterday? You're going to attribute all that to him being a noob? Noobtells my ass, you're being way too generous. For how meticulous you're being combing over all my posts this is utterly unacceptable. You're deliberately ignoring Jetsquirrel. Why would you do that? The implication is obviously that you two are scum buddies.

Now it's time to reexamine all your other actions in the game in a new light.

Why were you doing all that rolefishing at the beginning of Day 2? I highlighted the dangers of it and you stopped, but why did you do it in the first place? Did you know the dangers of it when you posted? I'm thinking you did.

More to come if it occurs to me.

[Zathras]

More to come if it occurs to me.

Please hurry. I can't wait.

[Jim Groovester]

I know, you must be dying with anticipation.

But I don't have any more questions to ask right now.

[Mr.Person]

@Zathras, if the questions are right there in front of you, why aren't you answering them?

@IronyOwl & Eduren: Just because your argument is correct doesn't mean it's not scummy. Just because the other guy is scummy doesn't mean that their attack becomes invalid. Refute arguments by explaining why they're invalid, not via ad hominem. You're both starting to get annoying at how little you're getting done.

@IronyOwl: If you think Eduren is scum because he's chainsaw defending me, why have you been ignoring me for the entirety of the game? What, did you assume he was defending a townie? And if you do think I'm scum, why haven't you been trying to get me lynched and what makes you think I'm scum?

@Org: What do you think of Eduren?

@Jim Groovester: Do you suspect Org more than Jetsquirrel?

@Zathras

Aggression is a town tell. Passivity is a scum tell. I can not be scum if I am aggressively pursuing targets and defending myself against suspicion. You have mistaken a town tell for a scum tell.

While this is essentially true, scum know this, so they have the ability to be aggressive to seem town (I'm dropping towntells! I can't be scum!). I say you are scum, and your aggressiveness is a screen to seem town. That your actual scumhunting (other than volume) is substandard, however, could be the case regardless of your alignment.

It would be a mistake for people to assume you are town just because you are aggressive.

So you say that Jim's been active but his scumhunting could be substandard. Ok, where is it substandard?

@Everyone who apparently can't look at a fucking clock and calender: Why do you keep claiming I'm lurking? I know for a fact I've posted every single weekday except Wednesday, which I'd like to apologize for. Weekends don't count as days, and even if they did, I've still posted on Sunday (it might be 5 in the morning Monday, bite me), so yeah, try again. If you're going to attack anyone for lurking, attack Org. Go ahead, compare how active we've both been and I'm sure I'll edge him out. Admittedly I don't think I'd beat anyone else, so there's a grain of truth there. Still, I'm not lurking. If you're going to claim I'm lurking, prove it.

[Jim Groovester]

@Jim Groovester: Do you suspect Org more than Jetsquirrel?

If Org would actually post I might be able to determine that. That's mostly what the vote is there for. I have a feeling that if he does post, I'm not going to like what I hear.

Org needs to do something. Answering why he hasn't bothered posting in forever and why he hasn't really voted anyone at all during the whole game would be a good start.

Even if Org had been posting I wouldn't really be able to say who I suspect more. There's a strong element of uncertainty about your suspicions when you're dealing with players like Org and Jetsquirrel, because of Orgtells and idiottells and noobtells and even legitimate scumtells. Suffice it to say I suspect them enough.

@Everyone who apparently can't look at a fucking clock and calender:

It's great that you're fulfilling your minimum posting requirements as laid out in the game rules but you're still quieter than most everybody else. Accusations of lurking naturally follow.

I'm trying to give more slack to people about it this game.

[JanusTwoface]

Current Vote Count

Day ends: 5 pm EST; 3 Nov 2010

Apprentices should send me a PM with the school they plan to assist by the end of the day.
Assists can be changed via PM until the day ends.

Jim Groovester	(2)	- Jetsquirrel, Zathras
Org	(2)	- Jim Groovester, Mr.Person
Eduren	(1)	- IronyOwl
IronyOwl	(1)	- Eduren
Jetsquirrel	(0)	-
Mr.Person	(0)	-
Zathras	(0)	-

Not Voting: Org


Let me know if I missed anything.

[Org]

Sorry, I have had some bad internet stuff lately, and some of my posts aren't being posted because I lose connection.
Had to get some internet provider's guy's help, and it took a while. Seems pretty good now, reading last few pages.

[IronyOwl]

@IronyOwl & Eduren: Just because your argument is correct doesn't mean it's not scummy. Just because the other guy is scummy doesn't mean that their attack becomes invalid. Refute arguments by explaining why they're invalid, not via ad hominem. You're both starting to get annoying at how little you're getting done.

I believe I have been. My point has never been that Eduren's lurking and therefore everything he says is invalid, it's that his hypocrisy is scummy in this case.

@IronyOwl: If you think Eduren is scum because he's chainsaw defending me, why have you been ignoring me for the entirety of the game? What, did you assume he was defending a townie?

He may have been. Reading scumtells off someone else's actions is dangerous.

That said, you're correct in that I've been too focused on Eduren. I had intended to spread out more once the weekend was over.

And if you do think I'm scum, why haven't you been trying to get me lynched and what makes you think I'm scum?

You've been rather inactive and Eduren looks like he was chainsawing you. Lynching you off just that is a gamble at best.

But now that you're here, Mr.Person, what's your take on the Zathras/Jim and IronyOwl/Eduren fights?

Org, you have done literally nothing all game. Who do you suspect? Isn't there any information you want out of anyone?

Jetsquirrel, are you convinced Jim is scum or do you just think it likely? What do you think Jim's scummitude says, if anything, about Zathras?

Jim Groovester. Much as I hate to dredge up The Plan, what was it ever intended to accomplish? Statistically, it hurt town PR more than scum PR. Do you feel the moderate chance at useful data would have been worth the high chance of buffing scum and gimping town at the same time, or do you feel it would have been useful regardless of which colors were chosen?

Zathras, did you not realize the danger with claiming an assist when you did so, or did you feel it was worth it to incriminate Jim? Do you still feel that way?

[Jim Groovester]

Sorry, I have had some bad internet stuff lately, and some of my posts aren't being posted because I lose connection.
Had to get some internet provider's guy's help, and it took a while. Seems pretty good now, reading last few pages.

As soon as you do stuff I'll reconsider the vote.

Jim Groovester. Much as I hate to dredge up The Plan, what was it ever intended to accomplish? Statistically, it hurt town PR more than scum PR. Do you feel the moderate chance at useful data would have been worth the high chance of buffing scum and gimping town at the same time, or do you feel it would have been useful regardless of which colors were chosen?

You mean The Fucking Goddamn Plan? I request you refer to it by its formal title.

Man, I don't even know anymore. It probably wouldn't have worked anyway the more I think about it. It would require ideal participation from that town, and that's not going to happen. And if participation is ideal, why bother with a plan anyway?

I still think it's better to organize support than just leave it random, but I can't think of any good way for that to be done. It would probably have to be done by PM or something like that, but the person who did it would be playing with fire.

I really just want to be done with this topic.

[Zathras]

Warning: wall of text ahead. Watch your step.

@Zathras, if the questions are right there in front of you, why aren't you answering them?
@Zathras

Aggression is a town tell. Passivity is a scum tell. I can not be scum if I am aggressively pursuing targets and defending myself against suspicion. You have mistaken a town tell for a scum tell.

While this is essentially true, scum know this, so they have the ability to be aggressive to seem town (I'm dropping towntells! I can't be scum!). I say you are scum, and your aggressiveness is a screen to seem town. That your actual scumhunting (other than volume) is substandard, however, could be the case regardless of your alignment. It would be a mistake for people to assume you are town just because you are aggressive.

So you say that Jim's been active but his scumhunting could be substandard. Ok, where is it substandard?

For the first, it was late, I'm answering them now. The only real question was "why have you been ignoring JS?" Answer: I didn't have anything specific to ask him, but I've now posed questions for him. We have followed a rather unhealthy pattern this game, with people focusing on one or two things/people instead of a broader focus, but we all seem to be working to correct that now.

For the second, "substandard" is a subjective term, but I stand by my previously pointed out items: he has been first forgetful then dishonest about my vote on Criptfeind, he's been disingenuous on the evidence claimed by his plan, he has chased people with made up or no arguments (calling Org out without asking him a question; calling JS's vote on him an OMGUS, when it was about his plan; calling me out on "either/or" when it was mostly in his imagination, etc.) I don't have high expectations of him, but I'm not really blown away by his analysis capabilities, thus my calling him "substandard"; but as I said, it's subjective. He is clearly loud, though, but his aggressiveness is not a towntell. It's not a scumtell in itself either, it's a null-tell, since it could easily be a screen. All I said is that it would be a mistake to think he's town just because he's aggressive.

@Everyone who apparently can't look at a fucking clock and calender: Why do you keep claiming I'm lurking?

Because you've been lurking. "Active-lurking", "inactive", or "useless", if you prefer. Sure, not enough to be prod-worthy, but bare-minimum isn't enough to call you a participant. You've been useless for most of the game, only now apparently getting engaged. I'm glad you are, but stop chewing people out for being dissatisfied with your performance thus far.

Zathras, did you not realize the danger with claiming an assist when you did so, or did you feel it was worth it to incriminate Jim? Do you still feel that way?

Yes. I saw little danger in claiming my own, and was trying to ascertain Jim's participation (and therefore scummitude). I still feel this was the right course of action, as it bagged us (or me at least) Jim as a clear scum for reasons already presented, and the probable scum school colour. Real danger would have come from a mass claim/call, but I didn't call for that...

...but now that I think of it, seeing it's probably lylo, what would people think about a mass call/colour claim? Most everyone would just claim "VT, forgot to support", but if the sorcerers know about their abilities in detail given the number of supporters, and they know that with enough they may be able to prevent a NK on themselves or something like that, then their claiming could be useful to garner enough support, and we could make up our minds about who's the scum based on their Day scummitude presented so far...

I'm not actually proposing we do this, but it doesn't seem as crazy as I initially thought. Opinions? Would it be a terrible idea, or are there ways to make it work? At the very least, it would give us more statements to work with, rather than rehashing the same five trite arguments we've been recycling for days now (Jim's plan; Irony/Eduren D1 votes, uselessness and hypocrisy; JS's noobness; Org/Person's lurkiness; my whateverness). These have been churned enough to be turned into butter, and we don't seem to be closer to consensus.

You mean The Fucking Goddamn Plan? I request you refer to it by its formal title. [...] I really just want to be done with this topic.

Why? Just because it's the clear indication of which school is scum, and your scummitude for presenting it? I don't blame you for trying to bury it, but it's not going away. You based your D1 game around it, you've defended it with every argument we've exchanged, and it clearly paints you as anti-town.

This is the first time I see you talk about it with less than absolute certainty. Could it be that you are having, at last, second thoughts about it? Or is it rather that, seeing it has outed you as scum, your best bet is to disown it soon before end of day comes?

[Jim Groovester]

For the first, it was late, I'm answering them now. The only real question was "why have you been ignoring JS?"

So you just casually decided to blow off all of my questions. I was just grilling you before but this is legitimately suspicious. Unvote.

Answer my questions, Zathras. It's scummy as hell to reduce all my accusations and questions into one you can easily answer. It's also scummy as hell to not respond to me directly.

You mean The Fucking Goddamn Plan? I request you refer to it by its formal title. [...] I really just want to be done with this topic.

Why? Just because it's the clear indication of which school is scum, and your scummitude for presenting it? I don't blame you for trying to bury it, but it's not going away. You based your D1 game around it, you've defended it with every argument we've exchanged, and it clearly paints you as anti-town.

I want to be done with it because arguing about it is really fucking annoying.

No shit it's not going to go away, Captain Glaringly Obvious. I know how these things work; don't have to tell me.

This is the first time I see you talk about it with less than absolute certainty. Could it be that you are having, at last, second thoughts about it? Or is it rather that, seeing it has outed you as scum, your best bet is to disown it soon before end of day comes?

I've already answered this to IronyOwl. If I thought this question served any game purpose and wasn't just to pump up your ego I would answer it again.

...but now that I think of it, seeing it's probably lylo, what would people think about a mass call/colour claim? Most everyone would just claim "VT, forgot to support", but if the sorcerers know about their abilities in detail given the number of supporters, and they know that with enough they may be able to prevent a NK on themselves or something like that, then their claiming could be useful to garner enough support, and we could make up our minds about who's the scum based on their Day scummitude presented so far...

I'm not actually proposing we do this, but it doesn't seem as crazy as I initially thought. Opinions? Would it be a terrible idea, or are there ways to make it work? At the very least, it would give us more statements to work with, rather than rehashing the same five trite arguments we've been recycling for days now (Jim's plan; Irony/Eduren D1 votes, uselessness and hypocrisy; JS's noobness; Org/Person's lurkiness; my whateverness). These have been churned enough to be turned into butter, and we don't seem to be closer to consensus.

Oh, hey cool. A bad plan. I should give you shit about it for the rest of the game. I think I will.

If everybody claims you're just going to want to lynch the Red Sorcerer immediately, when he could very well be town. This plan benefits you a lot more as scum than it does the rest of the town because a) you're tunneling like a mad man on me and anything remotely associated with me is automatically scummy, allowing you the perfect excuse to go after a potentially town sorcerer, and b) you know who to kill in the night if you don't manage to lynch the town sorcerer.

How about we don't do that and instead lynch one of many prime targets of suspicion like you and Jetsquirrel.

The game isn't going to ride on the power roles claiming right now anyway, it's going to ride on lynching scum today.

[Jim Groovester]

Scratch the vote change. Unvote Zathras, Org.

It's scummier for Org to say he's going to post stuff and never do than it is for Zathras to knowingly ignore my questions anyway, especially considering Org was on as recently as half an hour ago. I don't know what the explanation is, but I'm tired of excuses.

[Org]

Kay, lets see. have to redo this, not posted the first time(0_0)
My top three scum:
Zath/Jim
Eduren
Irony

I think I dont know about Eduren the most, and the otehr two are just some feels. Kinda thinking the bouts between the people mentioned are scum gambits, Seen it done before, like a RiA. However, I am not really sure, they just look like it. Jim has been really flippy floppy. I understand that I haven't posted, but thats some internet trouble I am having, I mean geez., Would you rather have someone answer your questions actually. Yeah, I was on, posting some stuff I had been drawing for the loast few days when I wasy gone, and It took a while. Excuses excuses, for me, but whatever, havent been having good luck. By really posting so much junk, it really draws my attention. I mean, more expletives and stuff. Srsly.