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Author Topic: Can we have homosexual dwarves?  (Read 22437 times)

Murphy

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2010, 07:46:34 am »

I view dwarves as asexual. It's the humans who, as someone said, have never-ending mating season. Dwarves only do it for reproduction, and they use other means to express love.
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Starver

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 08:09:49 am »

That's a lot of code to approximate what is essentially powers of a fraction.

(e.g., chances of coin coming up all heads in N throws, assuming 50:50 chance of heads is 0.5^N, and chances that a fair dice does not roll a six in any of M occurrences is (5/6)^M...


But on the issue itself, I would look towards something other than basic "U R Gay" (with alternative of "U R Bi").  At its very simplest, independent chances of finding same-sex and opposite-sex partners attractive.  That could be 0% and 0% for an entirely asexual dwarf or 100% and 100% for a libertine of the first degree, but mostly would be a mix, and a derived from a standard distribution or similar tailing-off, and a skew towards heterosexuality if you wanted to approximate the human bias towards (at least reported) homosexual/heterosexual proportions.

Anyway, when match-making with other dwarfs, take the appropriate percentage for any given partner, factor it into the compatibility equations (I'm assuming the physical and psychological characteristics already act as part of the "becoming lovers" and then "becoming married" process, for all dwarfs already finding themselves in close working/relaxing/partying proximity...) to find out if they are actually growing attracted to the partner.

And vice-versa.  This could be made to lead to an infatuation by one party, when a high intrinsic compatibility and suitable sexuality[1] one one side is countered by the target having much the same compatibility but without the sexual inclination.  At the moment (especially as all such relationships are hetero, anyway) the cross-compatibility would be equal in both directions for all parties[2], who have obviously had exactly as much personal time with each other as the other has with the first, so no 'love spurned' situations.

But if anything more 'realistic' gets integrated, I'd anticipate menage-a-trois relationships at the very least, Bunny Boiling and more passive forms of unrequited love as a matter of course, infidelities (Dwarf B is quite compatible with both Dwarf A and C, but A and C aren't[3]), and of course there'd be stand-offishness/frigidity in some individuals and rampant promiscuity in others.


It might be considered far beyond the remit of the game, but I mention it as an extent of the modelling that could be integrated.  I'm certain that while some will revel at such dynamic relationships, it would cause problems for others at various levels[4], so perhaps an INIT setting (normally off/at a repressed level of dynamism?) would be part of this.

Anyhoo, that's probably far too much typing.  Stream of consciousness, and all that.


[1] What's the old phrase?  Something like: Gender is what is in-between your ears, sex is what is in-between your legs, sexuality is who is between your legs.

[2] Not even complicated by infidelities, that I've noticed.  BICBW about that.

[3] Either by being of oppositely differing compatibilities from the central figure of attention, thus vastly less so, or just plain not having the gender-preference for each other.

[4] To some, making it complicated just like temperature, sieges and megabeast frequency do, and would rather they be disablable to make an easier game to play.  For others, it could be a philosophical or even moral issue as to whether such shenanigans should be allowed in front of their (or their child's) eyes.  Although I would like to say "It's only a game!" and point out that you already have the likes of cat-slaughtering, in-game, I'm not going to preach tolerance to anyone already not wanting to hear of it.
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Starver

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 08:19:27 am »

I view dwarves as asexual. It's the humans who, as someone said, have never-ending mating season. Dwarves only do it for reproduction, and they use other means to express love.
Dwarves do pair-match, though.  Even though spore-breeding seems to be the norm, only married couples actually produce sprogs.  That could be merely an indicator that they (or at least the female ones) possess some knowledge of herbal 'pre-marital aids', and/or have an internal biological switch that helps them reject all male-spawn until they have a formally society-recognised marriage[1].

Or it could be that dwarfs (and other sentient creatures) are actually super-infertile, and it needs a prolonged period of marriage-level proximity to get the wife to 'catch', of the kind that mere beasts seem to do without.  I've never really kept a close eye on married couples, to the purpose of enumerating the physics/biology of the processes, so couldn't say for sure how to interpret how the DF canon should be written to account for this sort of thing.


[1] At which point they may still selectively have to repel non-partner genetic material...  Or maybe the father is more a convention and there's more nurture than nature for any apparently paternal components to the offspring's physical/psychological make-up.
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blizzerd

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 08:27:16 am »

if this would be considered id prefer it to be done subtle and in a way that all dwarven are "bi-ish" in that each dwarf has a percentage chance of taking a same sex as his companion or that sexe is totally ignored on matchmaking and coupling

in fact i would not mind a same sex marriage of 2 females having both become pregnant from random blokes, sex does not seem to be culturally monogame in df, nor could we make it without changing a lot of the code
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Bohandas

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 08:59:33 am »

Dwarves do pair-match, though.  Even though spore-breeding seems to be the norm...

That is true, and the body designs in the RAWS seem to bear this out, (given the fact that the ONLY gender level differences in body design are their beards)

Or it could be that dwarfs (and other sentient creatures) are actually super-infertile, and it needs a prolonged period of marriage-level proximity to get the wife to 'catch', of the kind that mere beasts seem to do without.

Even pandas?
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Nagidal

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 10:28:05 am »

[...] That could be 0% and 0% for an entirely asexual dwarf or 100% and 100% for a libertine of the first degree [...]

Great! I love that idea. More than some fixed percentage model of mine. Yours is far more realistic!

[...] But if anything more 'realistic' gets integrated, I'd anticipate menage-a-trois relationships at the very least, [...] and of course there'd be stand-offishness/frigidity in some individuals and rampant promiscuity in others. [...]

Yes! Exactly. That would be so cool if we had such various personalities. I'd love that. My model now looks really too simple and too limited. Yours is absolutely superior.

In fact I like that so much that I am looking to extend my python script to such a profound model which would simulate what you sketch, just to see how it will feel like.
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Starver

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 10:36:39 am »

Or it could be that dwarfs (and other sentient creatures) are actually super-infertile, and it needs a prolonged period of marriage-level proximity to get the wife to 'catch', of the kind that mere beasts seem to do without.

Even pandas?

Well, (RL) pandas are going extinct at least partially because they don't seem to be fecund enough.  Traditionally, nature ensures that any animal that can't breed dies out.  (There's human interference causing problems, which is one good reason why humans should be interfering to try and help them, as they are, rather than let nature weed them out.)

It is arguable that, like intelligent parenting has helped Homo Sapiens and its recent forebears to overcome the totally underdeveloped babies necessary to allow safe birth to occur, an intelligent civilisation may have co-developed matrimonial practices and breeding rituals to counter an infertility[1] developed by that civilisation.

Status-quo, in a way.  At least within the scope of the usual breeding variances, with "large-litters, often" critters generally having a high infant (/pre-maturation) mortality rate[2] or non-breeding rate[3], compared with those that have single (or few multiple) offspring and invest a lot of parenting time (or preparation) into making sure that the next generation is spared the most immediate threats...


What we don't have, is an insight into what problems a pre-dwarfish population that retained a beast-like fertility might have encountered even while developing intelligence and culture and spreading across the world.  Overcrowding and internecine warfare might be the obvious problems to arise, but it's hard to say, without extreme speculation, exactly how a more subdued breeding programme amongst a sub-species of offspring of the original proto-dwarfs would have given them advantages over a world of cousins also from the proto-dwarf stable but instead heading down non-dwarf lines of development that maintained high population production but that must have had some form of increase mortality[4]...

Ditto the other races, to greater or lesser extents.  I can't even say if Kobold ancestry came from the same source as Dwarf/Elf/Human ones (or various other races, from raw or modded worldgens), as it's likely that some forms of racial development are 'universals' and could have been independently arrived at, as much as there being a single common ancestor tribe that possessed a parochial non-animal tendency which then merely diversified into the slightly different breeding frequencies and tactics employed by each of the traditional civilisations.  Much like flight being developed independently by multiple lines of creature, and also eyes, so that while our eyes come all the way through a common ancestor with apes, chimps, and all mammals, it was an independent solution that popped up separately from the insects, and the crustaceans, but still shared with birds and reptiles and fish from the pre-amphibian pentadactyl fish-like ancestor (at least...  Google or Wiki this thin for accurate details, I'm just going from memory and trying to compress it down).  Anyway.  Did I have a point with that?  I think I drifted.


[1] Or, possibly, that an infertility crept in as a breeding disadvantage alongside a survival advantage (maybe that self-same rise in intelligence/culture), and either couldn't be bred out (because of it being closely tied to the advantage) or didn't (because it didn't have to be, with the happenstance rituals being a surrogate to the lost natural fecundity).  Sociologically, the more fertile members may even have been beset by problems breeding (e.g. ostracism) in this co-evolved development of phenotype and societal mores.

[2] Such as in fish spawning, most of the young being fish-food themselves, quite early on.

[3] Meerkats and wolves and others having 'uncles' and 'aunts' of a normally non-breeding nature who largely defer to the alpha couple when it comes to perpetuation of the species.

[4] Hmmm... Speculation leads me to wonder if easy-breeding combined with high mutability, hardiness, longevity and far extended juvenile status to create those Horrors that are Clowns.  Migrating beyond the caverns into the deeper depths, they are capable of spawning large numbers to fill the large spaces, but went for slower life-cycles so that what we see are the turbulent masses of juvenile delinquents, acting much as the Viking Hordes (largely consisting of second, third, etc, sons, who had no hope of inheriting their parents' estates... only first offsprings stayed to happily maintain the dynastic line, so it is said, while the others go off 'Viking' (to 'Vike', if you'll excuse the Anglicisation of whatever the original Scandiwegian root was)... ) whenever their domain is breached.  It's a handy little tale about What Might Have Happened.  And thus probably completely wrong. :)
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Naros

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 10:38:49 am »

Other than this being the dumbest and most unsuitable idea I have seen on here for a while, I should say that the percentage of homosexual members of any species (human or animal) is largely influenced by the living conditions and overall population density.

And before anyone starts, no, I do not hate gay people. I infact love them. Vigorously.
But like real-world religious references, it is simply something that is beter kept out of games.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 10:41:16 am by Naros »
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Auto Slaughter

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 11:30:31 am »

Yeah, thumbs up to gay and bi dwarves.  Throw a little polyamory in there too.  It seems like a no-brainer to me, I've always been surprised that the game didn't already include it.

And while we're at it a little beard on beard action.
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Josephus

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2010, 04:51:11 pm »

Other than this being the dumbest and most unsuitable idea I have seen on here for a while, I should say that the percentage of homosexual members of any species (human or animal) is largely influenced by the living conditions and overall population density.

And before anyone starts, no, I do not hate gay people. I infact love them. Vigorously.
But like real-world religious references, it is simply something that is beter kept out of games.

So many ways to phrase that that wouldn't make you seem homophobic as you claim not to be, you know. :P

Like "putting this into the game would cause unnecessary controversy. Sad, but true."
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forsaken1111

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2010, 04:58:55 pm »

Not to mention his statement has no factual basis. We do not know what causes homosexuality, nor is there any hard data as far as I am aware of how widespread it is across different civilizations.
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Shade-o

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2010, 05:29:29 pm »

This could be combined with more advanced baby-making between or within castes. For example, some mono-caste creatures like blobs, myconids, and automatons would be able to simply multiply themselves without a partner. Fission, budding, pathenogenesis, and so on could make the game much more interesting.
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TheyTarget

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2010, 06:41:38 pm »

I support this cause I'm tired of useless kids. I wouldn't even mind it being a high percentage. I know plenty of places and cultures, were homosexuality was the norm.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2010, 06:51:54 pm »

If your entire reason is just to get rid of kids, just change your ini file to disallow children.
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Mckee

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2010, 08:02:52 pm »

Honestly I think there could be bigger and better additions to the game, especially because dwarves personalities are pretty 2D at the moment. If dwarven society was fleshed out and more diverse and thus a lot less harmonious, I think it might be worth including.

Its just not something that interests me personally, I couldn't care less what my dwarves are attracted to, so long as they finish rigging that tunnel before the next horde of goblins shows up. Thats not to say I don't want this in the game, I just think we have better stuff to be adding.
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