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[Leafsnail]

Well, that's not actually true.  They were meant to distract the players, but ended up killing the webadict.

[Mr.Person]

I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players.

;_;

If you want to prove my ass wrong, point out a game where you think the rules added to the game. Personally, I'm fine with saying the rules of KWN didn't hurt the game and maybe helped, I dunno. We didn't really play it the "right" way, if you catch my drift. It ended kind of early, so it's hard to judge. One thing that helped was, I think, the fact that all the rules were basically a giant flashing neon sign that said "THIS SIGN IS MEANT TO DISTRACT YOU"

[Pandarsenic]

Well, you were presented a problem - Webadict as scum - and were basically told The Rules Are There To Make Your Life Difficult.

Of course, all that was really necessary was for everyone to immediately vote for Webadict and not unvote him - the weird vote counts only showed up if someone unvoted him.

[dakarian]

Also make a note that the Webadict had it VERY difficult there.  In fact, given the rules and the roles involved, the only way I can really see the webadict winning in the end is to evoke Happily Ever After which, imo, is rather counterintuitive for scum. 

Btw, the rules DID distract everyone.  If everyone ignored the WIFOM and just went to lynch web like they wanted to, the game would've ended D1.

If you want games where the rules do NOT distract, then you need to look to non-bastard games with a quirk.  Then you'll have games like Paranormal, Parallel, Wizard's Dual, and a good few other quirky but non-bastard games.

The entire POINT to Bastard Games is to *)(# with the players' minds.  That's WHY they are called 'bastard mods': it's games where the mod is literally being a Bastard.

Sidenote: Most of our 'bastard' games are really mild.  GlyphGryph's Quick Bastard is, IMO, an honest to true Bastard Mod.  A mod where the town can play it like a normal mafia game and win is NOT a Bastard.

[Mr.Person]

Dakarian, I don't think anybody said that bastard mods shouldn't be bastards. Obviously some people have fun with bastard mods. Great, continue running them, have fun. I'm just saying that from my point of view, hidden rules for the sake of making the players figure them out seems to make bad games.

[Pandarsenic]

Dak: Also for KWN, keep in mind the scum had almost no more knowledge of the rules than the town did.

Mr.Person, you're saying that Bastard Mod games are fine but they're bad. Make up your mind? :c

[Vector]

Meh.  I think flavortext helps games, to be honest (thinking of KWN:DE and IMBML(BM(M))).  It provides a completely different medium of information-passing.

I think that a lot of the problem is that people here haven't yet figured out how to do two things: 1. write a solid user interface in their games and 2. play games while paying attention to multiple things simultaneously.  We've fixed our daygame to the point where most games aren't a complete walletful of fail, but we haven't quite figured out how to interact with the bastard mod interface.

We'll get there eventually.

[Pandarsenic]

Random idea: Pulp! Two-fisted Mafia!

No idea what the actual roles would be, but it'd be a silly and awesome idea. <_<

[dakarian]

@Mr.Person and Pandarsenic

I think what you, Mr.Person, is really after is this:

"Bastard games are fine but I hate them personally."

Personally, I never really could get into Wizard's Dual.  It doesn't make it a bad game type, but you'll never see me play one. 

Sidenote: I wonder if we REALLY had that bad of a day game, or did we just need to clean up the inactives first.  I'm noticing a direct correlation between the # of lurkers in a game and the strength of the day game.  The town can't scumhunt well when folks who really aren't playing the game are drawing the town's attention, and once you start letting them lurk, the mafia quasilurks along with them and/or uses the confusion to sneak into the town and wipe them out.

Second Sidenote: I need to go ahead and run another near-mountainous. 

third sidenote: what's currently in fashion gamewise these days anyway.  It feels odd to literally not hosting or playing a game. O.o

[Pandarsenic]

I pre-in on the Nearly Mountainous

In fashion presently? BYOR and variants of (We're sick of those though) and Bastard Mods (We're sick of those too). Running and ICing beginner mafias is fun tiemz...

Hmm...

Paranormal is back, obviously.

Yeah, no real fads still going strong at the moment.

[Leafsnail]

Toony Mafia's back too, always good for a quirky closed setup.

[Vector]

Sidenote: I wonder if we REALLY had that bad of a day game, or did we just need to clean up the inactives first.  I'm noticing a direct correlation between the # of lurkers in a game and the strength of the day game.  The town can't scumhunt well when folks who really aren't playing the game are drawing the town's attention, and once you start letting them lurk, the mafia quasilurks along with them and/or uses the confusion to sneak into the town and wipe them out.

third sidenote: what's currently in fashion gamewise these days anyway.  It feels odd to literally not hosting or playing a game. O.o

Yes, we really did have that bad of a daygame.  No one--literally no one--pushes stuff on gut feeling anymore.  We don't have townies pulling stupid gambits that completely kill the game.  We've started paying more attention to small details.  We've all gotten a lot better at adding pressure and generalized psychological warfare.

The scum have gotten a lot better in their daygame, too.  It's at a completely different level.


In fashion... hm.  I think that BYOR and variants are still extremely popular, but we've discovered that we need them in small doses or we get bored.  I personally still love bastard mods, even if they're still rather unstable.

Ultimately, though, I think that we're currently in the "age of interactivity."  Every player wants to feel that he personally has an equal stake in the game, and something really fun to do.  It's not "if I die, oh well.  My townie brothers shall avenge me."  It's "if I die, we might be in real trouble, and things won't be fun at all!"

The level-upping of our daygame has actually helped this a lot, since I think that even VTs are beginning to understand the amount of power they have.  We want well-balanced games where everyone will enjoy themselves, winning or losing.

Toony Mafia's back too, always good for a quirky closed setup.

^ Yeah, this.  "Quirky closed setups" is what we're looking for.  Not "Bastard mod closed setup," "quirky."  Like Horrible Role.

[dakarian]

Hmm.. that does help when it comes to designing the next game.  I guess by 'quirky' that means 'interesting roles'.  'Simple' might be the other situation as well.

Well in any case, I already know what the next few games will be.  I'll make good note of it when it's my turn for BYOR.

[Neruz]

I think i might update my MSPA Mafia Role List and then run another one of those, since it's not actually a bastard mod, just themed.

[Pandarsenic]

No one--literally no one--pushes stuff on gut feeling anymore.

I do. Because it works. Janus in Nearly-Mountainous, anyone?