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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 9704684 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57585 on: January 19, 2013, 09:09:18 am »

While they didn't believe in equality, but they did believe that everyone had their place in the world. Which might even, in a certain intrepretation, might be a better ideal than equality. Let's fastforward to a hypothetical future. In one, everyone is equal and is forced to do exactly the same, wherether they like it or not all under the watchfull eye of a benevolent supercomputer. In the other, the computer scans every person, and gives them a job and possesions he thinks they will like. Not everybody gets the same amount of stuff, but everybody gets something he/she will be happy with.

I actually find the latter scenario to be more "equal" than the former.  The flaw in your argument is that you think when other people say equality they actually mean sameness, and that is not the case.  Equality has to account for differences.  This is why totalitarian and absolutist approaches to humanitarian problems never achieve equality and generally do not work, even if genuinely well-intended.  Those types of solutions always benefit some more than others.

Marriage equality is a good case for this.  One side says "Equality is same sexes can marry just like opposite sexes can."  The other side, assuming equality means sameness, says "Equality is everyone has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex."  Obviously, the latter stance is not of equal benefit to all people, therefore not equal.
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We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57586 on: January 19, 2013, 09:43:11 am »

I never said all science was bad. I just wanted to say that not all science is good, and that undirected science isn't nessecerially a good cornerstone for a world.
Undirected science? Misapplied science you mean? Because providing a fundamental understanding of the consequences of our actions and the very basis of our existence and relationship with the planet we share is a vital cornerstone for our world.

After all, you can use the same science to negate all the effects of global warming until it's to late, or remember what caused this problem in the first place.
People consuming resources irresponsibly without consideration for the consequences. Science can't magically negate all of the effects of global warming, especially when the countries emitting the most amount of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere are 30 years late in addressing a problem that was critical decades ago. And are still debating over whether it exists.

Like you said, science is a tool, not a goal. Knowledge would be a goal, I suppose.
Which is why the improvement of science is also a goal. It furthers the living conditions of humanity.

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In order to increase equality, you will loose freedom.
I am well ready to loose freedom on the world in the name of equality. Glad you agree!
Some people aren't. (Note that I'm not one of them, but anyway). There are those who prefer the right to try for something better than a guarantee of something mediocre.
Ok, there's been a fundamental loss in translation here.

I was using 'loose' to mean 'release,' - that I would be happy to give freedom and equality to everyone. I suppose you meant to say 'lose,' and that to gain equality you would somehow have to remove freedoms.

Equality as SalmonGod is not sameness, it is giving everyone the freedom of having all the choices, treatment and liberties of every other person - to a same degree of equality.

Hence my sarcasm to you using Stalin as a poster boy for equality.


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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not really. The age of humanism was breaking in those time, science was an important factor in the colonization in that time, and progress is just a word to indicate going from one state to another, without saying wherether the new state is better than the other.
You missed out the part where progress means:
"2 Development towards an improved or more advanced condition:
we are making progress towards equal rights.
"
Advancing to a better state is progress. Holding onto the beliefs of things like slavery because "that's the value they held in those times," means archaic and downright malicious values are never challenged for what they are. Colonialism and Imperialism was the important factor. As was the Christians, motivated by colonialism, who felt it was their duty to "civilize" the "uncivilized" by destroying their culture and exploiting them. You will note they did as you described by destroying the old and replacing it with the new - yet this is not defined as progress.

Reason was important. Point is, reason is just the logical consequence of A to B.
If that is so, then humanity is insane and acts on instinct. Reason is the defining of why we make actions; not the consequence of mindless A to B decisions.

If you put crap in, crap comes out. It's of no real use as a value or ideal. While they didn't believe in equality, but they did believe that everyone had their place in the world. Which might even, in a certain intrepretation, might be a better ideal than equality.
There is no interpretation where the subjugation and torture of people is better than equality, beyond a regressive one. I hope you don't hold that view.
They believed everyone had their place in the world, and that place was beneath their feet.

Let's fastforward to a hypothetical future. In one, everyone is equal and is forced to do exactly the same, wherether they like it or not all under the watchfull eye of a benevolent supercomputer. In the other, the computer scans every person, and gives them a job and possesions he thinks they will like. Not everybody gets the same amount of stuff, but everybody gets something he/she will be happy with.
In the first, society is devoid of freedom, reason and equality.
In the second, society is devoid of freedom, reason and equality.


As the times changed, people's morals changed, and they continue to do.
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Snip
I'm not comparing the initial advantages of the slavery with the improvement of agricultural practices in Europe. I was comparing the using of natives slaves with the use of imported slaves in post colization (16the) century America. The import of slaves was an entirely rational descision, based on reason, and initially it did improve conditions. This doesn't mean I support it, or that it was a good thing, but merely that pure 100% reason is not always a good thing.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57587 on: January 19, 2013, 09:57:24 am »

And all of this is meaningless, because the comic was about the "atheist apocolypse", what they see as the end state state of the world.

It's optimism made manifest, basically.

But anyway, I'd argue there aren't problems that can't be solved by "throwing science at them". Given time, the proper application of science provides solutions. That is what it does. Any problem that can be solved, science can solve. Of course, it may have plenty of false starts along the way, and must constantly fight pseudoscience and poor methodology and it's human limitations, but if anything is going to solve a problem, science has demonstrated its superiority to other methods and will probably be the one to pull it off.

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Full dedication to science requires the removal of any ethical complaints.
How so? Does full dedication to, say, construction, require I bulldoze anyone that gets in my way? Does full dedication to a functioning democracy require I abandon my morals? It just... doesn't seem to make much sense. Scientific thought is a way of viewing the world, but it doesn't mandate any particular action and certainly doesn't require abandoning ethics.

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Full dedication to progress implies/requires the destruction of anything old, wherether it was good or bad
If you destroy something old that is still good, you haven't made progress. That's regression. Sometimes old things are destroyed to make room for something better, but if the old thing /works/, and its benefits outweigh its costs, it will obviously be kept, otherwise you are regressing, not progressing.

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Full dedication to reason requires the removal of emotions from decision making, or anything really. While the mechanics behind emotions are entirely reasonable, emotions themselves aren't.
Reason is a path. It's incapable of deciding on end states. Since emotions and desires are kind of required in order to apply reason at all, it would be unreasonable to require their removal.

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Full dedication to equality requires the elimination of all personal freedom.
I'm not convinced of this. When liberals and atheists describe equality, they generally describe equality of opportunity, and equality of power, not equality of results (which wouldn't really be equal at all, since humans are diverse and the results of identical outcomes for different people will vary). Some freedoms may be lost for some people - specifically, the freedom to exert your power over others, the freedoms of privilege, but this happens all the time as the boundaries where freedoms collide shifts, and doesn't really result in a net loss of freedom - just a realignment.
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dei

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57588 on: January 19, 2013, 10:27:20 am »

There are a few places that sell burgers really cheap that I can think of...

Though you could always prepare your own meat.
I am planning on buying a pound of ground beef and some other fixings for burgers as part of my groceries for this week. I won't have the money for cheese or hashbrowns like I wanted to, but I am buying a box of Betty Crocker Mac and Cheese this Sunday as part of those groceries. I could perhaps take some of the beef, cook it, then mix it with said pasta with cheese sauce product and then have cheeseburger macaroni.

If I restrain myself I could have enough for two meals or so, even more if I perhaps add in some white rice. I might do the same for the can of Chef Boyardee or the can of Campbell's Cream of Chicken and perhaps have quite a few extra meals now that thanks to my mother I have some means of storing leftovers. White rice is my favorite thing to add to something to make it last longer, and one cup of white rice is enough to double the amount of food I would have leftover when it comes to most any meal I make that white rice can be added to.

That and the bit where I go to visit my mother for her birthday and see my doctor for a much-needed refill of my thyroid medicine are going to make this coming week a little better than the last. At least I hope it will.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57589 on: January 19, 2013, 10:29:39 am »

Why has the sad thread become a thread about some sort of philosophy, daddy? ;-;
Because the state of the world it concerns is saddening ;(

dei

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57590 on: January 19, 2013, 10:44:27 am »

I don't care either way save that it's disappointing to see any thread go off topic, unless if the derailment is somehow useful and productive, like being able to fix the tiny screw that keeps coming loose on my glasses with a steak knife.
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Dutchling

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57591 on: January 19, 2013, 12:24:18 pm »

But aren't derailments sad things, and thus not really derailments?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 12:37:35 pm by Dutchling »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57592 on: January 19, 2013, 02:09:13 pm »

I look at it in a similar way as the happy thread: If something makes you sad, it isn't off-topic.
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DeKaFu

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57593 on: January 19, 2013, 03:05:29 pm »

Monster Hunter Tri servers are going down permanently in April.

Why do my favourite video games ever always come with a limited shelf life?  :(
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Dutchling

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57594 on: January 19, 2013, 05:06:38 pm »

Time to play Starcraft I guess ;)
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57595 on: January 19, 2013, 05:49:26 pm »

Monster Hunter Tri servers are going down permanently in April.

Why do my favourite video games ever always come with a limited shelf life?  :(
Because profit, mostly :-\

Or greed, I guess. I think if it hit the point where maintaining servers was no longer profitable I'd just release the server architecture to the public and slap a "donate if you liked this" button on it. Potential income into perpetuity without the need to supply infrastructure costs, hup hup.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 05:51:21 pm by Frumple »
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MrWillsauce

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57596 on: January 19, 2013, 05:50:01 pm »

Monster Hunter Tri servers are going down permanently in April.

Why do my favourite video games ever always come with a limited shelf life?  :(
Because profit, mostly :-\
Damn you capitalism!
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57597 on: January 19, 2013, 05:55:50 pm »

They did time it perfectly so everyone can get the new Monster Hunter. Convenient.
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PanH

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57598 on: January 19, 2013, 06:53:45 pm »

I just learned by my mother that my grandfather doesn't want to get out anymore (and in fact, didn't go out since Christmas). He doesn't even go to groceries with my grandmother like he used to.
And, they're going to do his birthday in their apartment, while my parents' (or my uncle, that live nearby too) house is less than a km away, and they could drive him. Well, at least, I can hope it's just because of winter, and he'll feel better after.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 06:57:33 pm by PanH »
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #57599 on: January 19, 2013, 07:22:32 pm »

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How so? Does full dedication to, say, construction, require I bulldoze anyone that gets in my way?

What makes a great hero also makes a great villain. Without balance or temperance any obsession becomes obsessive and destructive in nature.

It is blindness
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