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[Leafsnail]

...Wait, anti-suffragists in this day and age???  I'm hoping this site is just completely infested with trolls, but...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't think someones opinion should matter if it is set in stone. I give much more weight to the person who considers every point put forward than I do to the person who goes "nuh-uh I'm right".

It's harder to convince the latter than the former, but a lot more satisfying when you do. Sucessfully prying apart the beliefs of someone utterly and competely devoted to a certain position has this schadenfreudinan joy to it. Just watching them go into a psychological tailspin and find their position irreparably wrecked is so enjoyable. I suppose that sounds a little sadistic, though.

[Vector]

I don't think that there's really so many differences. Some men think every woman is a manipulative whore. Some women think that all men are chauvinist pigs.

In either case, both groups are bigoted jerks.

All the same, I thought that the FAQ forbidding bigotry/death threats against women/whatever was a good sign.

Er, maybe not.

Vector, you don't have to listen to everyone. Sure, it helps to listen to the opposition in a debate. But those sort of people aren't the opposition. The opposition is any reasonably thinking body of people that can potentially be swayed to your side of a debate. Those guys are never going to sway to any philosophy that does not crown them master of the known world.

True, but I've read the pro-feminist hate-spewing diatribes.  I read through a venting forum (ASPartners) about how people with AS are just impossible to live with and be married to.  Heck, I just kind of... have been reading, because I can't fight something whose arguments I fail to understand.  I wanted to make sure there weren't points I was missing.  In my search for equality, I don't want to shortchange men, or blind myself by riding in on a wave of good talking points.  I want to see what there is to see.

The big thing is that for all that they bill themselves as intellectual and philosophical, they do an awful lot of namecalling.  It looks kind of like a kneejerk reaction to second-wave feminism (which I will say was really fucking problematic in many, many ways) without paying attention to the things that the third wave has to offer.

Ah, well.  Maybe somewhere else.

...Wait, anti-suffragists in this day and age??  I'm hoping this site is just completely infested with trolls, but...

Well, you know.  They're angry =/  I've seen a lot of people arguing that feminism is causing "the collapse of society," starting with giving women the right to vote.  "Rome fell because women started to have more personal freedom," etc.

I don't really want to argue against that here, but I'll just add that this nostalgia of the past is just as virulent as it always has been 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yeah, Rome totally fell because women had more personal freedom. All those years of mentally ill Emperors and living in a slowly collapsing slave imperium had nothing to do with it. Sarcasm, in case you can't tell.

[Cthulhu]

Cript:  Don't wrestle a pig.  You'll just get dirty and the pig will enjoy itself.  There's a point where you have to say "Fuck this guy" or he's just going to drag you into the mud with them.

Then again, dismissing their arguments too early can get you into the same thing they're doing, where you ignore contrary beliefs, entrench yourself in your own beliefs and one day you wake up and you're sitting in your underwear at 3AM telling people women were invented by the reptilians to keep the men passive.

...Wait, anti-suffragists in this day and age???  I'm hoping this site is just completely infested with trolls, but...

Nah, they're probably for real.  That's what happens when you circle-jerk and echo-chamber your beliefs.  See the point above.

[Darvi]

Cript:  Don't wrestle a pig.  You'll just get dirty and the pig will enjoy itself.  There's a point where you have to say "Fuck this guy" or he's just going to drag you into the mud with them.

But you wouldn't want to... oh.

[Bauglir]

True, but I've read the pro-feminist hate-spewing diatribes.  I read through a venting forum (ASPartners) about how people with AS are just impossible to live with and be married to.  Heck, I just kind of... have been reading, because I can't fight something whose arguments I fail to understand.  I wanted to make sure there weren't points I was missing.  In my search for equality, I don't want to shortchange men, or blind myself by riding in on a wave of good talking points.  I want to see what there is to see.

I want to say, I applaud your ability to withstand the kind of stupidity displayed on that page, especially when it's directed basically at you. And to then say, "Yeah, this is tough, but I need to keep doing this or I won't get anywhere". I mean, literal clapping of hands has now been involved. I got about halfway through that post before feeling as if I was a worse person for having read it, as if by osmosis. So... yeah. Willpower, I think you has it.

[Leafsnail]

Well, you know.  They're angry =/  I've seen a lot of people arguing that feminism is causing "the collapse of society," starting with giving women the right to vote.  "Rome fell because women started to have more personal freedom," etc.

I don't really want to argue against that here, but I'll just add that this nostalgia of the past is just as virulent as it always has been 

It seems to go waaaaaaaaaaay beyond anger though.  Way beyond a backlash or nostalgia even.  Just pure, complete hatred of women.  I mean, I'm not sure how else you explain something like "Giving women more power is like dogs walking people".

[sonerohi]

Vector, you don't have to listen to everyone. Sure, it helps to listen to the opposition in a debate. But those sort of people aren't the opposition. The opposition is any reasonably thinking body of people that can potentially be swayed to your side of a debate. Those guys are never going to sway to any philosophy that does not crown them master of the known world.

True, but I've read the pro-feminist hate-spewing diatribes.  I read through a venting forum (ASPartners) about how people with AS are just impossible to live with and be married to.  Heck, I just kind of... have been reading, because I can't fight something whose arguments I fail to understand.  I wanted to make sure there weren't points I was missing.  In my search for equality, I don't want to shortchange men, or blind myself by riding in on a wave of good talking points.  I want to see what there is to see. Still, I'm struck by your willingness to muck through everything that is terrible about those people just to make sure that you don't commit your own wrongs. Saintly would be a good word for your attitude.

The big thing is that for all that they bill themselves as intellectual and philosophical, they do an awful lot of namecalling.  It looks kind of like a kneejerk reaction to second-wave feminism (which I will say was really fucking problematic in many, many ways) without paying attention to the things that the third wave has to offer.

Ah, well.  Maybe somewhere else.

Men can hardly be shortchanged. My grandpa worked for seventy years of his life at manual labor, without ever whining or grumbling; It was what he had to do, so he did it. My uncles been working for sixty years now at manual labor, without every whining or grumbling, to maintain and expand on what my grandpa did. Those two are men. These misogynistic fuckbags are kids who decided that life was too hard and that they should be entitled to things. They haven't earned being a man, but they feel entitled to call themselves that because they like to imagine they have good qualities. You can say that you've seen all the points, and design your equality, and if you err you will only shortchange whiny little boys.

[Cthulhu]

Well, you know.  They're angry =/  I've seen a lot of people arguing that feminism is causing "the collapse of society," starting with giving women the right to vote.  "Rome fell because women started to have more personal freedom," etc.

I don't really want to argue against that here, but I'll just add that this nostalgia of the past is just as virulent as it always has been 

It seems to go waaaaaaaaaaay beyond anger though.  Way beyond a backlash or nostalgia even.  Just pure, complete hatred of women.  I mean, I'm not sure how else you explain something like "Giving women more power is like dogs walking people".

Weirdly enough, the best description of how people get like this that I've heard was given by a guy in a country band.

Without contrast, however, you can only take this so far. If you only listen to extreme music, it ceases to be extreme. It's castrated by its lack of context. Science books are my palate cleanser, my yardstick by which I can compare things. They're objective and often without tone. Going back to the metaphor of living on one side of the dial, they pull me back toward the center so I can see just how far I've slid. For the flipside of this, look at someone who only listens to extremist talk radio. The radio programs are robbed of their extreme context, becoming the center of the listener's dial and thus normal and unextreme. Then the listener, unaware of how far they've moved across the dial, plunges down a rabbithole from whence they'll likely never return.

Replace extremist talk radio with extremist anti-feminism forums and you've pretty much got how people go from run of the mill Nice Guy to practically a Neo-Nazi.

[Leafsnail]

...Yeah, actually that completely makes sense.  And I guess in order to be part of their circle jerking group (and their circlejerking is pretty much institutionalised - people make threads for each other in the "best of" forum.  So Rock makes a "Best of outlaw2747" thread while outlaw2747 himself makes a "Best Of emanon" thread) you need to be even more extreme so that people remember your posts and think "yeah, he's telling it how it is".  Ugh.

[Vector]

I want to say, I applaud your ability to withstand the kind of stupidity displayed on that page, especially when it's directed basically at you. And to then say, "Yeah, this is tough, but I need to keep doing this or I won't get anywhere". I mean, literal clapping of hands has now been involved. I got about halfway through that post before feeling as if I was a worse person for having read it, as if by osmosis. So... yeah. Willpower, I think you has it.

Haha, thank you.  I can't really say much more than that, other than offering you an internet-hug if you want one.

It's... comforting that you'd tell me that.

[Reelyanoob]

Someone once said hiring his worst critic as an advisor was the best business decision he ever made. I totally forget who that was but it's good advice - it avoids the yes-man syndrome (while getting that person to STFU with the public criticism), as seen in the anti-feminist / extremist case.

Plus, groups of like minded people tend to polarize and out-do each other for extremeness. This is related to the intellectual "bubble" syndrome but is a separate phenomena. It tends to migrate the bubble even further from the mainstream.

I'm responding blind here to the basic idea, I'll have to go back and fish out the site you're all up in arms about, for the lulz. EDIT: yup there some hate on that page (and at least a couple out-of-context quotes too).

I agree with the Marlene Dietrich quote about trying to change people, no to almost all the others.

[MaximumZero]

Daughter had to get bloodwork done today for a wide-spectrum analysis of allergies. She took the needle like a champ, though. Not even a whimper.

[Bauglir]

I want to say, I applaud your ability to withstand the kind of stupidity displayed on that page, especially when it's directed basically at you. And to then say, "Yeah, this is tough, but I need to keep doing this or I won't get anywhere". I mean, literal clapping of hands has now been involved. I got about halfway through that post before feeling as if I was a worse person for having read it, as if by osmosis. So... yeah. Willpower, I think you has it.

Haha, thank you.  I can't really say much more than that, other than offering you an internet-hug if you want one.

It's... comforting that you'd tell me that.

Huh, I'm actually kinda surprised that it's comforting, but ditto to you. Prolly gonna try and read it some more, though, if only as a reminder of the now-recognized-as-disgusting way I used to think, and why I really do need to keep an eye out to avoid falling into those patterns again.