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[Reelya]

people who were children/teens in the '80s and '90s when we first had anime and manga popping up in the West to a meaningful degree. ... which for the most part didn't go beyond still basically shonen/shoujo-y stuff

hey don't lump Gen-X in with the millenials there.

For the older fans you can determine a definite bump point which is pre- and post- Sailor Moon/Dragonball/Pokemon.

Sailor Moon - that only gained a following from 1998 onwards (there was a short-lived 1995 run which was canceled due to terrible ratings). Pokemon also first aired in 1998. Dragonball Z ran from 1996, but only from 1998 on Cartoon Network's Toonami, which is where almost everyone actually first saw it. So 1998 is the "effective" year that shonen & shoujo first broke in the West. Almost all the translated stuff was sci-fi and seinen before that.

The 80's was all about military, mecha and space opera: Star Blazers (Yamato), Robotech (Macross), Voltron. Those were the kind of things you could get. 1990s was all about seinen: film dubs of Akira, Ninja Scroll, Wicked City, Ghost in the Shell. Those were the popular anime if you came of age around the mid 1990s. Remember, Ghost in the Shell was released in dub in 1996. So if you were born before about 1980 then you'd probably have seen Ghost in the Shell before you'd seen Pokemon, Sailor Moon or Dragonball. It's definitely a generation divide right there.

So yeah, when talking about shonen/shoujo kiddies, we're talking about Millenials, specifically, and only about events after ~1998.

* just a note about Evangelion and similar. People have a false notion that earlier generations of Western anime fans were all about this stuff back in the 1990s. In fact, Evangelion first aired in the USA as recently as 2005. So why is it really held up as a milestone? Because it aired ~7 years after pokemon/DBZ/Sailor Moon, so the people who were adolescents watching those were ready for a more "edgy" and "deep" (by teenage standards) story by the time NGE aired in 2005. A more likely explanation is that it's mostly considered a "milestone" because its American airing coincided with the "coming of age" of the millenial generation, rather than the idea that it had an important formative effect on the fandom. Note that "edgy" series Elfen Lied also hit Western screens in 2005, about the same time, and also became wildly popular for reasons nobody seems to be able to articulate.

[Cruxador]

Dies Irae is tremendously overwrought. But then, what do you expect from a show about magical nazis? So far there doesn't seem to be any clear plot, but the first episode doesn't really match the description that's gone around to the various sites, so I suspect it's sort of a prelude/background.

Kino no Tabe is a comfy anime which promises to have social commentary. It seems to me like a serious contender for anime of the season so far (but we'll see how the adaptation of Mahoutsukai no Yome plays out). It does have some CG though, and if you're into fandom stuff there'll likely be arguments about whether the main character is trans, since she uses boku and the subs are translating gender-neutral pronouns as male for some reason. Leaving aside that ticking time bomb, and complaints from fans of the 2003 version about differences, the show itself is great. Even a bad guy type character who served as an object lesson was treated with human dignity, which give me great hopes that it'll live up to itself in its portrayal of societies.

(snip)

I wonder which of those groups of anime you watch...

(snip)

tl;dr: Add anime to the list of things that millennials ruined.

[RAM]

Sailor Moon - that only gained a following from 1998 onwards (there was a short-lived 1995 run which was canceled due to terrible ratings). Pokemon also first aired in 1998. Dragonball Z ran from 1996, but only from 1998 on Cartoon Network's Toonami, which is where almost everyone actually first saw it. So 1998 is the "effective" year that shonen & shoujo first broke in the West. Almost all the translated stuff was sci-fi and seinen before that.

[Reelya]

Sailor Moon - that only gained a following from 1998 onwards (there was a short-lived 1995 run which was canceled due to terrible ratings). Pokemon also first aired in 1998. Dragonball Z ran from 1996, but only from 1998 on Cartoon Network's Toonami, which is where almost everyone actually first saw it. So 1998 is the "effective" year that shonen & shoujo first broke in the West. Almost all the translated stuff was sci-fi and seinen before that.

I was specfically addressing the evolution of the English-speaking fandom / American fandom however. Other language groups might as well be on a different planet. American fans hardly ever reference or engage with them. They're not relevant to the argument. 1998 was the year these series became widely avaliabe in the USA.

And yes, a petition was launched to get Sailor Moon back. But the point is that the ratings were still shit. And the petition failed to get it put back on thr same channel. Hardly anyone watched it in 1995. The people who did watch it were extra-keen to get it back, but that doesn't mean the ratings weren't, in fact, shit. It wasn't widely known until after 1998, therefore it wasn't a major influence on the growth of US anime fandom until after 1998.

Actually, summing some of that up.

in the mid 80's you had anime space operas in the USA, fans of those moved onto the 90's cyberpunk / slasher / horror anime film genre, which really culminated in Ghost in the Shell being a cultural point of reference. It's really the peak of Gen-X's involvement in anime fandom.

Then post-1998 you had shonen/kiddie animes for the early millenial gen, which evolved into a demand for "edgy" series with "symbolism" shit airing and being popular with that generation around the mid-2000s (FLCL, NGE, Elfen Lied etc). This culminated in the massive cultural force of Death Note.

Around the same time that stuff was peaking, the next-gen shonens hit for the younger millenials: Bleach, Naruto, One Piece. By the previous theory, about 7 years after those series hit that new generation would be ripe for something "gritty and edgy" with gore and/or people's heads exploding, "plot twists", teen angst, symbolism and deconstruction. Cue the market going gaga over Mirrai Nikki, Tokyo Ghoul, Psycho-Pass etc. Attack on Titan's massive fanbase seems to be the peak here.

And about the same time that bunch of teen-angst "whoa" fiction was big, Sword Art Online aired. Now, if you say a generation is 15 years, then SAO would be "generation Z's" pokemon/dbz equivalent. And that totally fits. SAO is shonen plus "cool" gaming/internet culture, totally stuff of Gen-Z. "My Magical smartphone" is also tapping into this vein. By this theory then around 7 years after SAO aired you should see the next-gen "thing we all hate that teens seem to love" at the same time as the next "edgy, whoa, did that guy's brain just explode?" wave of popular series.

I there might be something in this cyclic idea. e.g. sometimes animes come out that should be classics but they get overlooked for some weird reason. Perhaps it's because of a generational cycle of tastes. e.g. Ergo Proxy could have been much more famous if it came out when the right generation of people were looking for something like that.

[Cruxador]

I was specfically addressing the evolution of the English-speaking fandom / American fandom however. Other language groups might as well be on a different planet. American fans hardly ever reference or engage with them.

While I agree that there's an argument which could be made for the 90s and early aughts that different countries markets are totally separate, I don't think it's true any more. Too many people use the internet in English these days, regardless of their original language.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that you're the only one so far talking about the American market specifically, while other discussion is about the western market as a whole.

in the mid 80's you had anime space operas in the USA, fans of those moved onto the 90's cyberpunk / slasher / horror anime film genre, which really culminated in Ghost in the Shell being a cultural point of reference. It's really the peak of Gen-X's involvement in anime fandom.

Then post-1998 you had shonen/kiddie animes for the early millenial gen, which evolved into a demand for "edgy" series with "symbolism" shit airing and being popular with that generation around the mid-2000s (FLCL, NGE, Elfen Lied etc). This culminated in the massive cultural force of Death Note.

Around the same time that stuff was peaking, the next-gen shonens hit for the younger millenials: Bleach, Naruto, One Piece. By the previous theory, about 7 years after those series hit that new generation would be ripe for something "gritty and edgy" with gore and/or people's heads exploding, "plot twists", teen angst, symbolism and deconstruction. Cue the market going gaga over Mirrai Nikki, Tokyo Ghoul, etc. Attack on Titan's massive fanbase seems to be the peak here.

And about the same time that bunch of teen-angst "whoa" fiction was big, Sword Art Online aired. Now, if you say a generation is 15 years, then SAO would be "generation Z's" pokemon/dbz equivalent. And that totally fits. SAO is shonen plus "cool" gaming/internet culture. "My Magical smartphone" is also tapping into this vein. By this theory then around 7 years after SAO aired you should see the next-gen "thing we all hate that teens seem to love" at the same time as the next wave of "edgy, whoa, did that guys brain just explode?" series.

I there might be something in this cyclic idea. e.g. sometimes animes come out that should be classics but they get overlooked for some weird reason. Perhaps it's because of a generational cycle of tastes. e.g. Ergo Proxy could have been much more famous if it came out when the right generation of people were looking for something like that.

I'm not sure about it myself. I've seen edgy stuff be popular with middle schoolers (tweens) and not people who have necessarily gone for lighter anime before that point. I see the trend of alternation, but I don't really see the evidence that it's a generational thing. And I don't think the thesis that edgy stuff naturally follows more comfort food anime is solid either, moving on and enjoying happy things seems as much a mark of maturity as going from banality to "deep" anime does.

[Reelya]

I was specfically addressing the evolution of the English-speaking fandom / American fandom however. Other language groups might as well be on a different planet. American fans hardly ever reference or engage with them.

While I agree that there's an argument which could be made for the 90s and early aughts that different countries markets are totally separate, I don't think it's true any more. Too many people use the internet in English these days, regardless of their original language.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that you're the only one so far talking about the American market specifically, while other discussion is about the western market as a whole.

the point about the American release dates was about the divide between generations, not between east and west cultures. It's a different discussion topic to what we said before.

FD was making a specific point about what anime genres were available in the "West" in the 80s and 90s. but different language groups have always had differences in the types of series that get translated. So FD's "you could only get shonen and shoujo" point wouldn't be as relevant to e.g. Spanish speakers, because they're a separate dubbing eco-system. Such a discussion about generational differences in anime dubs is only meaningful if you consider each language group as a separate eco-system. e.g. what animes Australia got was heavily influenced by what UK or America got, and not at all influenced by what was airing in e.g. Brazil. Sure there's meaningful contact now between language groups, but really, only when other language groups decide to learn English. English speakers aren't reaching out to anyone else, it's one-sided.

* BTW one point I just thought up is that many of our measures might be over-representing sub-watchers vs dub-watchers. A myanimelist user, scanlation reader or nyaa.si torrenter is more likely to be a sub-watcher than a "random" anime viewer would be, just because they're deeper into the hobby. Also torrenters are more likely to be PC users, who trend older and more male than an unbiased sample. Lots of younger fans, casuals, girls might be watching on streaming sites and phones. That's something that would need to be accounted for in any metric.

[Cruxador]

If you're talking only about the 80s and 90s, then okay, but in modern times it doesn't matter that it's non-English speakers speaking English as opposed to the other way around, because whatever the language, people are communicating so there's influence. I mean, so you really think Abyss would be doing so well in a purely Anglo viewership? Just to bring up an example that's fresh in the memory.

Lots of younger fans, casuals, girls might be watching on streaming sites and phones. That's something that would need to be accounted for in any metric.

Ew, must we really?

[NRDL]

Just finished reading the Teppu manga. Holy shit the lack of closure at the ending. No idea if it's bittersweet, or just plain sad. Officially my favourite Shounen subversion story.

[Tack]

Officially my favourite Shounen subversion story.

You have piqued my interest.

[Cruxador]

Two Car is cute and cheerful. The aesthetic doesn't stand out, and I found the pacing a bit off; the intro dragged on for six minutes before the MCs spoke. But when they did, they were endearing, which forgives a lot of sins. I also found the way the first episode was cut to be really effective at introducing characters in a relaxed way while simultaneously having action. In other words, the pacing improved. This is the Tamura Masafumi's second show as a director (he debuted in that role with Ange Vierge) and for a fresh director, it looks great. The comedy's a bit hit or miss for me, but anyway it's the kind of show that makes you smile and go "ah, youth".

Blend-S seemed like it would be simple and cute but then there was cat balls and an evil glare and then there was a boy and a weird cut with stars and it's all over the place and that's before the OP. It's super comfy and the comedy is great and the main character is cute and has a great VA. If you like that sort of thing, it might be the best show of the season.

Infini-T Force is ugly as sin and cheesy as a tourist trap in Wisconsin. But I found the story to actually be kind of intriguing. The over-the-top "cool" characters portrayed a "so bad it's good" feel so it could definitely be enjoyable even if you're not in the 10-14 demographic that it feels like it was shot for.

Ancient Magus Bride has top-tier subject material and great sound design. This is the only one this season where I'm familiar with the original material, so my appraisal may be harsher for that reason. I thought the intro was too explicit about motivations and revealed far too much far too quickly. Maybe my expectations were too high but I don't think it'll live up to its potential. That's not to say it won't be good in its own right, the source material guarantees that at least the story will be good.

Net-juu no Susume is a super comfy show. I feel like these mini-reviews are revealing my preferences a lot, but it's a cute show with a nice little romance to it so far. I can already see some of the plot points coming a mile away, but it doesn't matter.

Spoiler: Some more mini-reviews that I earlier included in other posts, compiled for convenience (click to show/hide)

Omiai Aite wa Oshiego, Tsuyoki na, Mondaiji is pretty much just porn.

Black Clover seems like typical shounen so far. Potential to be big, but with one episode, it hasn't done anything yet. I'm seeing tropes played straight and excessive voice acting from the MC. If it doesn't subvert expectations, I won't recommend it highly. That said, it's probably the show that will be hot to make fun of this season, if Dies Irae doesn't surpass it in that.

Ousama game is melodramatic deathfest. The kind of thing that we see fairly often and it plays out pretty much the same each time. From the first episode alone, I wouldn't say it's a particularly excellent example of the genre. Since one episode isn't enough to extrapolate much, I asked manga readers if the series is as shit as it seemed, and responses varied from "yes" to "it's shittier".

Urahara has a nice aesthetic. Pastels, crayon-brush lines and fabric textures. Some unconventional cuts in the videography. Very artsy. Not yet sure if the substance lives up to the style. Speaking of western popularity, this show won't be getting high viewership numbers. But a discerning individual might give it a shot. I was impressed in the first few minutes, but found it to be at once frenetic and slow over time, and as such I grew weary of it before the first episode ended. Seems like a show would have been better on a 12 minute timescale than 24.

Konohana Kitan is very cute. It makes your heart happy to watch, so if that's what you need, watch it. On the other hand, it's set in a hotel/bathhouse so if you hate nudity, that may throw you off. It's not sexualized so far but I already got some shoujo ai type vibes off of it, so it may veer into light yuri territory. You can bet there'll be fans who assure you it already has. As far as content, there is some substance to it but anyway it's cute, so the rest is just details.

Just Because is very slow-paced, but unlike Urahara, it's not that the time is empty; even when it's moments of silence between characters, it feels better used than that. If you want a peaceful and mellow show, it's a good way to spend 20 minutes.

Dies Irae is tremendously overwrought. But then, what do you expect from a show about magical nazis? So far there doesn't seem to be any clear plot, but the first episode doesn't really match the description that's gone around to the various sites, so I suspect it's sort of a prelude/background.

Kino no Tabe is a comfy anime which promises to have social commentary. It seems to me like a serious contender for anime of the season so far (but we'll see how the adaptation of Mahoutsukai no Yome plays out). It does have some CG though, and if you're into fandom stuff there'll likely be arguments about whether the main character is trans, since she uses boku and the subs are translating gender-neutral pronouns as male for some reason. Leaving aside that ticking time bomb, and complaints from fans of the 2003 version about differences, the show itself is great. Even a bad guy type character who served as an object lesson was treated with human dignity, which give me great hopes that it'll live up to itself in its portrayal of societies.

[Reelya]

So many sequels this season, I have a few shows to catch up on such as 3-gatsu no lion and Hoozuki no Reitetsu so I can watch the new ones.

Dies Irae looks like it might be fun when it airs. Nazis summoning demons in 1945 as they're losing the war or somesuch as backstory. Looks like schlocky but enjoyably vapid entertainment.

Also new WUG! (Wake Up, Girls!) me and some other-forum people were taking the piss out of this show before (first season). It's WUGtastic, etc. Fans are WUGGERS etc.

[90908]

Alright, can we talk about how Centaur no Nayami is set in a dystopia? To be honest its the only reason I watch at this point. Fucking reeducation camps? Soldiers stationed at high schools? Jesus christ, some people can't cut their own hair or they get arrested.

Not going to lie I'm very, very invested in this psuedo-orwellian nanny state.

[Reelya]

The real world is a dystopia.

Up until the 1960s gays were arrested and had expermental treatments forced on them by both America and the UK. That's re-education camps. Plus we force kids to take drugs to regulate their behavior even now. And you can be taken away if you don't adhere to specific rules of society, and then "rehabilitated" and "paroled" which means that once your responses are within X standard deviations of the norm, you're deened to fit normal enough. That's re-education camps.

And in many jurisdictions you can't just draw pictures of the wrong things or you'll be arrested, charged, labeld a sex offender, put through re-education, then monitored for life. How is that not dystopian thought police? We just internalize that however by saying that the person targeted was "horrible" and "deserved" the system's vengeance.

And plenty of cultures around the world have strictly-enforced taboos, even now.

And France for example, wants to ban religious headwear from schools, while some want to go as far as making it a hate-speech crime to "misgender" someone, with the intent of protecting minorities. It's not far off from where we are to the C.n.N stuff.

Basically, we do lived regulated lives, and people who don't conform are taken away and punished until they start repeating the right beliefs. Look at enforced ongoing AA meetings for someone who drunk-drove even once. Google "Duluth Model" legally mandatory interventions for domestic disputes (read that as madatory partriacrhy theory indoctrination for men involved in domestic disputes)

But we're inside all that and when you're inside ideology, the justifcations for the system are internalized. It's not that different.

[90908]

On one hand, yes, I think you're right in many ways.

On the other hand, it is oftentimes interesting to see an entirely different flavor of batshit insane.

[Cruxador]

In Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryokou, somehow starving and holding a little girl at gunpoint for food feels cute and comfy. The atmosphere is great and it's a pleasant sort of melancholy the whole way through.

Sengoku Night Blood is perhaps the most typically shoujo thing around right now. It's a romance with a self-insert MC set in a historical period but all the historical figures are attractive vampires and werewolves. Honestly that should tell you pretty much everything you need to know.

I tried to watch Kujira no Kora wa Sajou ni Utau, but there's no simulcast so I'll have to wait until tomorrow for subs.

The real world is a dystopia.

Eh. There's certainly bad parts to look at. But the idea of a dystopia is that it's written to illustrate a point, almost always a political one. If real life sucks, that's not so much "dystopia" as just how it is.