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Author Topic: I like anime, do you like anime?  (Read 3122810 times)

Culise

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21000 on: January 29, 2015, 11:10:14 am »

Yeah when it comes to white washing... NO ONE white washes more then the allies.

The Axis countries are all Germany is pretty open to what terrible things they have done, for the most part, but the Allied countries try as hard as they can to bury all but the most popular examples.
Sorry, but I had to correct that.  One of the big disputes between Japan against both Koreas and China is the fact that Japan has the exact same awkward tendency to bury their own examples, not to mention understating matters, that you condemn the Allied countries for.  It's one of the reasons why Japanese people tend to be somewhat confused about Chinese intransigence regarding the Nanking Massacre; all too often, they don't realize just how bad it was.  Plus, there's also the issue of false equivocation that all too often comes up: I'm not accusing you of this, but frankly, there is no real Allied or Soviet analogue during the war to the Japanese treatment of POWs, the systemic "obtaining" and treatment of comfort women, the Holocaust, or Unit 731 (the closest being the pre-war Holodomor, which was conducted against perceived political enemies with Ukrainians being caught in the crossfire rather than a systemic policy of ethnic extermination).  Dresden, the Goumiers, the mutilation of the dead, even the internment camps in America and Canada, these were on an entirely different scale. 

Yes, there is significant amounts of white-washing, but there really were differences between the two sides, and romanticization of the Axis does not sit well with me at all.  For an analogy, imagine that if the mayor of Berlin came out and said that the Holocaust never happened because "it would be impossible to kill that many people."  Imagine if Merkel regularly visited the reputed grave of Himmler.  Imagine if the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research authorized a set of textbooks downplaying the Holocaust, and a previous Minister came out later stating his pride that he managed to strike all references to the razing of the Warsaw Ghetto from most textbooks.  Imagine if it was official stated policy on the part of said ministry also to downplay or ignore all reprisal actions by the German Wehrmacht against villages suspected of partisan action, a policy continued even after several German states attempted to make official protest.  Imagine, under these circumstances, how most people would view the production of a large number of media works glorifying the Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine.  I'm not arguing that most Japanese people are that way; in fact, while officially authorized, the most infamous set of textbooks that state the Nanking Massacre never happened were barely used on a local level.  I am, however, suggesting that there is a serious disconnect in a part of the Japanese political and media scene from reality, and that this is more significant and more serious than in most other countries.  As such, I am seriously uncomfortable with the glorification of Japanese military forces during World War 2, not just in itself, but because it is also indicative of a general trend in Japan. 

EDIT:
That said, and to drag this back off the topic of Japanese nationalism, has anyone ever seen Zipang?  The concept behind it seemed somewhat interesting to me because it seems this kind of issue would actually be relevant.  Basically, a modern SDF destroyer is thrown back in time to Midway, and you end up with not only the juxtaposition of either attempting to change the past or not, but also the political dimension of modern Japanese citizens and sailors having to balance their wish to protect their home country against the fact that the "Japan" of this era is actually a militarist, nationalist, and totalitarian goverment by decree.  It's something you can't find in similar works where it's an Allied ship that's sent back in time.   
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 11:23:15 am by Culise »
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Leafsnail

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21001 on: January 29, 2015, 01:26:03 pm »

I don't think a comparison to Grave of the Fireflies or any other story that attempts to seriously look at the effect of the war on ordinary people is fair.  This is more like a mindless celebration of the Axis military machine to appeal to the milotaku crowd (which I also find really strange and creepy in general but that's a separate issue).  Glorification of this kind of thing seems likely to feed into dangerous nationalistic ideas, although I'm aware that the nationalist movement in general does not approve of anime so it's not as bad as it could be.

Admittedly I'm kindof curious because apparently they're doing some historical stuff, and following that to its logical conclusion would leave like 90% of the cast dead at the end.
Start Yuri Kuma Arashi, and I'm liking it a lot so far. I notice that it's got really low MAL ratings so far, which is sadly typical, early episode voters love shitty battle harems but hate anything that's different or creative. People who are more into unique series tend to wait before casting a vote.
It's by the Revolutionary Girl Utena guy so I guess it might be good?  Looks pretty weird so far.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 01:35:47 pm by Leafsnail »
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Neonivek

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21002 on: January 29, 2015, 01:30:31 pm »

Quote
there is no real Allied or Soviet analogue during the war to the Japanese treatment of POWs

What about the allied treatment of the German Aryan women?

Though at least Japan has yet to make an anime ABOUT the Nanking Massacre where they are the "good guys" who only killed "Military targets" like the good old Americans do.

The reason I want to actually watch the "glorified Japanese WW2 military" is because it is their side in a period where all you get is an over glorified "The allies are amazing!". I like the shift in perspective no matter how "icky" it gets.

Mind you there IS an anime that depicts the Nanking Massacre and that would be Hetalia... but one of the running jokes in that series is how it diminishes these events... Then again given that these are embodiments of entire countries you would have to have a absolutely monumental massacre to actually affect "a country".
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 01:36:47 pm by Neonivek »
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Parsely

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21003 on: January 29, 2015, 01:41:14 pm »

With regards to Kancolle being pro-Axis:

Quote from: Kancolle Synopsis, according to Wikipedia
The series features Fubuki as the main character, with the storyline based on her point of view. In a world where humanity faces the threat of the abyssal fleet which has taken over the seas, special human girls who don weaponized outfits and possess the spirit of historical naval vessels known as kanmusu are the only ones capable of countering them. The kanmusu live together at a naval base, where they spend their everyday lives as they train for battle.

I haven't seen the show myself but judging from that I'm given the impression that, like Girls und Panzer, it cops historical designs but it is not about WWII, so I don't see where pro-Axis comes into it at all unless it really is a period drama.
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Zangi

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21004 on: January 29, 2015, 01:50:26 pm »

Maybe cause the mere depiction of Axis ships as the 'good-guys' constitutes as a pro-Axis view?  Which I guess means its a very bad thing.

*shrug*  I don't get it myself.
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Culise

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21005 on: January 29, 2015, 02:07:38 pm »

Quote
there is no real Allied or Soviet analogue during the war to the Japanese treatment of POWs

What about the allied treatment of the German Aryan women?

Though at least Japan has yet to make an anime ABOUT the Nanking Massacre where they are the "good guys" who only killed "Military targets" like the good old Americans do.
Not systemic, not an organized and officially-condoned political institution devoted to supplying these women for the purposes of rape and sex slavery.  The Soviets were the worst of the four occupying armies if you accept Beevor's numbers at face value, but even there, rape was punishable by anything ranging from arrest to execution.  Similarly, American, British, and French soldiers also had punishments on paper for such crimes, though all three also had enforcement issues (the latter compounded by endemic race issues; black soldiers were more likely to be punished than white soldiers).  It's the difference between non-enforcement of laws preventing rape and official endorsement of institutionalized rape as part of their military culture; both are completely and utterly reprehensible, but the latter is still worse than the former. 

I'm not really discussing Kancolle in particular as being pro-Axis, myself; I was originally discussing how Neonivek is claiming that Japan has owned up to its crimes for the most part, that the Allies are the ones whitewashing their own crimes (which, in conjunction with the initial claim, also implies that they are the only ones whitewashing their crimes), and that he loves the romanticization of the Axis side in general.  That disturbs me quite a bit. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 02:09:14 pm by Culise »
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Zangi

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21006 on: January 29, 2015, 02:25:49 pm »

So the only acceptable depiction is the demonization and/or mookification of the Axis side in media?

EDIT: I mean, I guess it may seem disturbing if you think that any hint of white/grey in a normally black depiction of the Axis and its soldiers/supporters is a very bad thing... as if it would erode the established fact of what has already been done or as if it would lend any credence to those past actions.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 02:31:05 pm by Zangi »
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Culise

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21007 on: January 29, 2015, 03:09:29 pm »

No.  Fair treatment is fine.  Glorification, not so much.  There is a middle ground between idealization and demonization.

EDIT: But, we're completely off-topic.  So, question from my first post again: Has anyone seen Zipang?  Did you like it?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 03:16:44 pm by Culise »
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ggamer

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21008 on: January 29, 2015, 04:04:13 pm »

Thinking about GuP, wasn't there an anime that played the whole "girls and industrial war machines" tropes way more seriously? All I can remember was that it was Galactic Heroes-level brutal, and the only reason they even thought about letting little girls pilot tanks was because the technology meant that only people of a certain size could pilot the tanks, and the war was just getting that desperate.

@derail

*sigh* alright whatever can't beat 'em join 'em

IIRC There's a growing minority in the diet that's pretty much the polar opposite of the pacifist politicians that are indicative of Japanese politics to most people. Hmm... I think that was back in 2013 when I heard that, and last I heard there were really pervasive issues from this political group protesting in the sort of little-korea areas around Japan. Not quite like the Tea Party in America, but more like the Terra Firma party from Mass Effect, minus the whole Cerberus thing.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 05:27:51 pm by ggamer »
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i2amroy

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21009 on: January 29, 2015, 04:12:39 pm »

Thinking about GuP, wasn't there an anime that played the whole "girls and industrial war machines" tropes way more seriously? All I can remember was that it was Galactic Heroes-level brutal, and the only reason they even thought about letting little girls pilot tanks was because the technology meant that only people of a certain size could pilot the tanks, and the war was just getting that desperate.
That actually sounds like it would be really interesting. If anyone could find that and post the name I'd be much obliged.
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Darvi

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21010 on: January 29, 2015, 06:02:01 pm »

Huh, I didn't know there was a Magic Kaito adaption last year. Considering that the manga got a)cancelled/put on indefinite hiatus way back and b)a much more popular spinoff, this is very much unexpected.
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Flying Dice

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21011 on: January 29, 2015, 07:18:39 pm »

Thinking about GuP, wasn't there an anime that played the whole "girls and industrial war machines" tropes way more seriously? All I can remember was that it was Galactic Heroes-level brutal, and the only reason they even thought about letting little girls pilot tanks was because the technology meant that only people of a certain size could pilot the tanks, and the war was just getting that desperate.
That actually sounds like it would be really interesting. If anyone could find that and post the name I'd be much obliged.
Huh, yeh. Never heard of that, I think.

Though one wonders why they didn't just use volunteer soldiers who had their limbs amputated and fitted with sockets which can interface with both the tanks and prosthetic limbs. Oh, wait, Japan.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21012 on: January 29, 2015, 07:25:57 pm »

I don't know. Fitting sockets to amputees doesn't sound all that time or cost effective for a nation that's desperate enough to use child soldiers. Plus from what little I remember about the show, which unfortunately doesn't include the actual name of the damned thing, the tech level is vaguely WWII. Or at the very least not advanced enough to implement what you're suggesting.
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Neonivek

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21013 on: January 29, 2015, 08:27:19 pm »

Watched the latest episode of Build fighters try and uhhh...

Hasn't the Gundam series delved into the "Super Robo" genre before?
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Furtuka

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Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« Reply #21014 on: January 29, 2015, 08:31:29 pm »

G Gundam did, but never to that extent. It stands out as pretty unique and maintains a lot of Gundam concepts. The Tryon 3 is an old fashioned Brave Series esque combiner which is completely opposite to whats normally in gundam, and as explained by Yuuma goes against the gunpla battle meta.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:35:37 pm by Furtuka »
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