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[Imp]

... I forgot that your Duplicate had Improvement on it. This game is really hard to keep track of.

Supposedly it's your Duplicate.  For sure it isn't 'mine', didn't come into the game with me.  I do have control over it currently, far as I know in this crazy game where people can make people do stuff.

-(night) Duplicate (flux, meta, slow, cascade, overpowered, improvement)

I'm surprised you forgot, you're looking at and talking about the pieces.  Still, we all can only juggle so much.

Someone... no.  Mafia specifically are setting you the heck up, you're the victim of amazing coincidences, or you are mafia, and I think the amazing coincidences thing is very unlikely.

I can't rule out the set the heck up, but that's zebra when we hear hoofbeats.  Still, maybe we're in Africa where zebra are far more common than horses.

[Imp]

Also, we're not talking about EJ's induction into chats.

I am concerned if we don't limit that we die around D6 to it.

If we have to kill EJ twice to stop him and he can kill us all by getting us into the chat... we have to start soon (don't need to start today, but probably tomorrow).  Incredible waste of time if he's town.  Or EJ can, y'know, just stop inducting folks.  He has his two hostages, which would be incredibly anti-town to kill instead of elim if we need them dead.

Today we're 8.  I don't think we elim EJ today, nor am I sure EJ is anti-town.  But EJ+ hostages = 3.  We Elim someone today and have no deaths tonight (would be great, I think that's a great path, but)

If EJ inducts:

D4 we have 7 alive, EJ+hostages=4 unless we elimed EP or Toony, the current D3 hostages.

If we start elim of EJ then, and presuming there's still no kill:

D5 we have 7 alive at best (since EJ claims needs more than 1 death to remove - presumably he throws as many kills as he can, probably just 1, maybe NJW can defeat it, or maybe EJ can only kill the entire chat, including himself, not something he's ready to do since we're not all in it), EJ+ hostages = 5.

D6 we have 7 alive at best, EJ+ hostages = 6, and we finally elim EJ the second time, if we need to double elim him... if we need triple there's even worse trouble.

If we don't start elim of EJ on D4... then by the time we can kill him, if kills during night are not involved, is D7, when he has us all in that chat if that's the plan.  Does he have to make it to night again to kill the chat?

Is this even a problem?

I don't know, I'm worried about it.  I would feel awesome if EJ would consent to stop inducting people into that possibly killer chat.

I totally pray to the powers that be, be that EJ himself or town as a whole, let's not let this scary thing happen.  You guys flipped out about my holding to my chance to treat Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist as god-to-me and power I wanted to follow and obey utterly, and thought it was evil evil evil evil when it was innocent and just me wanting to keep a dream alive/beg for future dreams/submit and serve and cherish and be utterly me.

Okay, I was stupid.  EJ, I don't see you having the same level of motivation to be stupid here that I had in FBYOR.  Please, please, please, please stop inducting people into your killer chat so I can put more Xanatos energy into solving anti-town and less into solving you in case you're not anti-town?  If you're town you shouldn't be trying to kill with that Page in play anyway, and you got 2 hostages.

I'm beggin' y'man, really.  If you're pro-town, take the pressure off, because I am seriously scared you're going for a group kill and we can't stop you if you don't stop you.

Begging... probably relevant.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Imp]

Shrugs.

I don't have an answer for you.

I can say it is extremely likely Max/webadict were teamed together. It makes little sense otherwise.

Yeah, considering Day 1's execution of sofanthiel, that makes a ton of sense.

njw, if we faced a second Mafia team, would each team have a distinct name?  What might the flip of a member of each mafia team look like, alignment-wise and wincon-wise, if there were two teams?

... I'm thinking they can't win together, so they have to have distinct alignments and wincons as well, otherwise they can win together.  The mafia roleflips all show us a wincon that doesn't give a hoot about a second mafia.  Or SK.

We know web's wincon, nqt told us.

You are Mafia. You win when town can no longer win.

nqt, is there a reason why we do not see MS's wincon on MS's flip?  What is MS's wincon?

Based on that wincon, I think Mafia can win with SK if SK exist.  I think if we face a second mafia team, first mafia team can win with second mafia team should it exist, because there's nothing in that wincon that tells us otherwise.

Ths is sof's wincon:

Your goal is to maximise change. You win and leave the game when every living player has a different ability set than when they started. You can win while dead if this condition is met before or when the game ends. You can lose if the game ends with a Town or Mafia win before your goal is reached.

Doesn't mention 'if SK win before your goal is reached'.

I win when all anti-town factions are dead.  I'm not worried about 1 mafia group or 2, SK or not.  They all look anti-town to me, let's get them out.  But it seems weird to me why we would put any energy into worrying about if there's 2 mafia teams or not.

I'm even less scared about EJ's killer chat now that I've considered these wincons - but EJ, I'd still feel safer if you kindly stop inducting us all, because... even if you're not an SK you can maybe kill us all and I don't think that makes our job easier.

[Imp]

In Fallacy's defense, I rolled SK last game, and I had the exact same defense mechanism.
My role is actually NOT random: It combines the last two roles that I got, with a twist.
But hey, I submitted Awesome Pirate as my role, so I signed up for this.

Keep going Fallacy. It's not like I'm gonna die to the lynch or anything.

Oh, OK. That still strikes me as unlikely to be a real thing in this game, but I totally buy that Fallacy believed it now.

I'm good with it too, that this seems entirely possible to be a real part of this game that EJ actually has regardless of alignment.  I negotiated with nqt pre-game.  I went past the spheres and role request, because we were told

- Players will typically know their own abilities: insanity, hidden abilities etc. are unlikely to feature unless a player signals through character creation that that's what they really want

nqt did not expressly tell us to signal to him during character creation in any specific way.

But I took that as an invitation to tell nqt how I thought my role and spheres (red and blue both!) might work together and told him what I wanted and didn't want out of what appeared possible.  Not to make him do anything, I can't.  But to let him know what I wanted, so he could do whatever he chose with that information.

I 100% believe if I wanted to have a character that could survive 1+ elims, I could have created it, explained it, and I'd expect to be playing it this game, or surprised and enjoying whatever I got instead - but it seems 100% within the realm of what this game could allow us to do if we asked for it/other people also picked the right requests that might empower it/nqt decided it all fit together.

The fact that I see other 'homage to those last two major games' in this game only increases my faith that this is possible or likely or certain.

[Crystalizedmire]

According to NQT,  the number on the ability name only shows if I have multiple copies of the same ability.

[Imp]

According to NQT,  the number on the ability name only shows if I have multiple copies of the same ability.

Perfect.  And all I can confirm is that I did not gain anything similar to that accel ability except the Dup ability I discussed D2, and nqt believes there's no current processing error.

I'll need to think more... and whoops:

EBWOP:

nqt, if we faced a second Mafia team, would each team have a distinct name?  What might the flip of a member of each mafia team look like, alignment-wise and wincon-wise, if there were two teams?

Also, is Maximum Spin's wincon identical to webadicts?  I am confused by not seeing a wincon on Maximum Spin's roleflip.

[notquitethere]

nqt, if we faced a second Mafia team, would each team have a distinct name?  What might the flip of a member of each mafia team look like, alignment-wise and wincon-wise, if there were two teams?

Multiple scum teams have distinct internal names so I can tell the chats apart but that would not be publicly facing information to be revealed on death. You have seen mafia flip: it would look like what you have already seen.

To be even clearer: if only two mafia teams are left, then they could simultaneously destroy one another, allowing town to win and so, in the case of multiple mafia teams, mafia team A cannot win until mafia team B and mafia team C and mafia team D are eliminated.

Also, is Maximum Spin's wincon identical to webadicts?  I am confused by not seeing a wincon on Maximum Spin's roleflip.

Yes. There is only one mafia win condition and it's public knowledge, in the OP.

[Imp]

nqt, if we faced a second Mafia team, would each team have a distinct name?  What might the flip of a member of each mafia team look like, alignment-wise and wincon-wise, if there were two teams?

Multiple scum teams have distinct internal names so I can tell the chats apart but that would not be publicly facing information to be revealed on death. You have seen mafia flip: it would look like what you have already seen.

To be even clearer: if only two mafia teams are left, then they could simultaneously destroy one another, allowing town to win and so, in the case of multiple mafia teams, mafia team A cannot win until mafia team B and mafia team C and mafia team D are eliminated.

Also, is Maximum Spin's wincon identical to webadicts?  I am confused by not seeing a wincon on Maximum Spin's roleflip.

Yes. There is only one mafia win condition and it's public knowledge, in the OP.

nqt, based on the wording of the one public knowledge win condition, what would stop two mafia teams from winning together, along with any SK?

You are Mafia. You win when town can no longer win.

[Imp]

Thinks about it more.

Wow, I'm blown away.  Okay, I can see how we could have more than 1 mafia team, and/or an SK.

My fears about EJ's chat are back in force.

EJ, I get why EP's chat(s) have a pro-town purpose, he can cop stuff.

I see only EJ-purpose in inducting folks to the chat that EJ controls.  Can you help me understand why/how putting folks in your chat is pro-town?

Also, what's with your recent vote on CM?

Last I heard you say about CM was:

@Fallacy:
Why were you voting Crystalizedmire at end of Day 1
and NJW2000 at end of Day 2?

The life you save may be your own!

It's a problem since Crystal was on 100% of the mafia lynches and Imp was on 50% of the mafia lynches, whereas Fallacy was second vote on the wagon opposing the mafia lynch both days.

You don't present concerns or a case, no new issues with CM I see.

EJ, did you just jump back into RVS with both feet?

[notquitethere]

nqt, based on the wording of the one public knowledge win condition, what would stop two mafia teams from winning together, along with any SK?

You are Mafia. You win when town can no longer win.

See:

To be even clearer: if only two mafia teams are left, then they could simultaneously destroy one another, allowing town to win and so, in the case of multiple mafia teams, mafia team A cannot win until mafia team B and mafia team C and mafia team D are eliminated.

Thinks about it more.

Quite.

[Elephant Parade]

Do I spy an octuple-post?

[TricMagic]

K. Missed the fact SK Hall could get passed around.

Yeah, it's Elephant. The only reason those daggers are already in play is because of RNG. There isn't a reason to have that ability otherwise if you don't have to use it. It's clearly not an auto either. An ability you never have to trigger, with no upside to doing so?

I already explained the upside, but I'll do it again:

I have a free ability that targets a chat and a sphere. If any member of that chat (except me) or any player any member of that chat (except me) shares a chat with (except me) has an item or ability tagged with that sphere, I receive a Yes result; if not, I receive a No result.

Therefore, my Secret Basement chat, had it not just had a couple of people added to it, would have effectively let me use that ability on a specific player even after I added people to my first groupchat.

Spheres aren't indicative of alignment. Being able to help town is not indication that you're town. Webadict could help town. Max could help town. They were mafia. Max did in fact help Fallacy.

[Imp]

Max did in fact help Fallacy.

Hopefully.  Else Fallacy and Max made that nice cover for scum N1 actions.  It also seems possible that Fal never needed help like that, Max never gave it.  But I'm not ready to call it fact that Max helped Fal... oh.

I'm not ready to call it fact that Scum did in fact help Town.  I guess it's certain that either way, Max did help Fal/they helped each other, and we just don't know what help, exactly.

[Elephant Parade]

K. Missed the fact SK Hall could get passed around.

Yeah, it's Elephant. The only reason those daggers are already in play is because of RNG. There isn't a reason to have that ability otherwise if you don't have to use it. It's clearly not an auto either. An ability you never have to trigger, with no upside to doing so?

I already explained the upside, but I'll do it again:

I have a free ability that targets a chat and a sphere. If any member of that chat (except me) or any player any member of that chat (except me) shares a chat with (except me) has an item or ability tagged with that sphere, I receive a Yes result; if not, I receive a No result.

Therefore, my Secret Basement chat, had it not just had a couple of people added to it, would have effectively let me use that ability on a specific player even after I added people to my first groupchat.

Spheres aren't indicative of alignment. Being able to help town is not indication that you're town. Webadict could help town. Max could help town. They were mafia. Max did in fact help Fallacy.

Of course, but spherecopping has obvious pro-town uses, such as catching people who lied about their spheres for scum reasons and, with the Magnifying Glass, catching people who have spheres that may belong to the mafiakill. Also, because my spherecop also hits anyone the members of the groupchat share another groupchat with, I can use it as a pseudo-groupchat cop: if a groupchat has only me and Player X, who has exclusively claimed Spheres A, B, and C, and I check the chat for Sphere D, then that player is either lying or in a groupchat. Obviously this doesn't work so well now that my groupchats are a bit fuller, especially since Toonyman is in all of them.

[ToonyMan]

Toony: you seem pretty against the idea that there are two scumteams, or even further scum outside Max/Web/Potentially FoU. Is this based on reads or assumptions about the setup?

I don't feel like thinking that hard about this game when I strongly believe it will end today via FoU's demise.

This is more based on reads than on assumptions of the setup.

I don't believe anybody else is mafia with Web/Max. Nobody else makes sense to me. No one.

I don't believe there's a SK. Everyone else I read as town.

I don't believe there's two mafia teams. Same reasoning.

FoU is mafia.

If this statement turns out false I will take serious consideration to win this game for town.