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[Maximum Spin]

It might not be a lie, but Quarque definitely doesn't seem to want it refilled even though it would be blatantly pro-town. Maybe it's even real, but a drawback to an otherwise pro-scum ability. Maybe it's supposed to block vigkills or something.

Actually, I could really see that working if Quarque's a mally who's been balanced not to help too much. Claiming the ability then has the effect of letting the mafia know when not to bother shooting. Especially if it's an auto effect, Quarque wouldn't want it refilled so that it can be out of the way for night 2.

I dunno that Quarque is such a terrible vote, though. For someone who supposedly has a shotted power to block the mafiakill, Quarque sure is in a hurry to make sure you don't ever get the chance to refill it.

I mean, I think there's a chance we're going to hear, "oh golly gee, I used up my one shot and scum had a super, oh well I guess!!!"

I can't deny that as a possibility, but then voting them is the exact same outcome, no?  I'd rather test out the Mafiakill blocker first.

Eh, sure, that's fair. I was going to offer Fallacy to vote Quarque if Fallacy lets me remove that supposed EuchreJack-lovers-ability, but I guess you're right that we should actually try to use the block first.

[Imp]

FoU -

What do you think the downsides are for you, if Max is indeed able to change your auto into something that doesn't bind your life to another players, and uses it?

Is there anything about that auto you like having?

About the web stuff, I read web as wanting me and sof dead (and we think he's scummy) and NJW dead (who said could help or hinder web's search for emeralds, and currently intended to hinder unless web helped kill scum).  I asked web for reads, especially of me, who he's voting, and if I understand him, he hates my typing and wants me dead town or not.  If he dies, he's cool with it, long as I die too - he doesn't even care if I'm town or not.  If he's town, he's cool with 2 dead town D1, long as I'm one of them.  Why are you reading this person as town?  Why are you ignoring all this anti-town focus?

[Maximum Spin]

I asked web for reads, especially of me, who he's voting, and if I understand him, he hates my typing and wants me dead town or not.  If he dies, he's cool with it, long as I die too - he doesn't even care if I'm town or not.  If he's town, he's cool with 2 dead town D1, long as I'm one of them.  Why are you reading this person as town?  Why are you ignoring all this anti-town focus?

I don't think web says that if he thinks you're town. I'm pretty sure town web has said things like that before. And even been wrong before, but don't ask him to admit that! I can't think of any examples right now, but ToonyMan in FBYOR 6 said something like that about Jack, I think?

A lot of the more experienced players are willing to die to get out the player they most strongly suspect. Even I would be sometimes, although I'm usually too self-preserving to actually say so. I think that's basically how you felt about Secretdorf in that game too, and certainly how Secretdorf felt about you. And yes, that was also a mistake, I think it probably usually is, lol.

In particular, in this case, it wasn't actually up to webadict whether two people die anyway, so it's not like he had a choice but to be okay with it.

[webadict]

[2] Well, if it can be put to good use in an 'unfixed' state, then maybe it's better to leave it and reprioritize Spin's action. Assuming Spin and Toony are being honest.

Yes, I agree, but they aren't really hard defending anyone.

If you want to kill Jack you'll have to get through me, first. Jack is as town as you are.

Okay, well, I was gonna ask if it was removed, if you'd vote EuchreJack, but that's probably answered.  Have your reads changed, then?

It might not be a lie, but Quarque definitely doesn't seem to want it refilled even though it would be blatantly pro-town. Maybe it's even real, but a drawback to an otherwise pro-scum ability. Maybe it's supposed to block vigkills or something.

Actually, I could really see that working if Quarque's a mally who's been balanced not to help too much. Claiming the ability then has the effect of letting the mafia know when not to bother shooting. Especially if it's an auto effect, Quarque wouldn't want it refilled so that it can be out of the way for night 2.

I dunno that Quarque is such a terrible vote, though. For someone who supposedly has a shotted power to block the mafiakill, Quarque sure is in a hurry to make sure you don't ever get the chance to refill it.

I mean, I think there's a chance we're going to hear, "oh golly gee, I used up my one shot and scum had a super, oh well I guess!!!"

I can't deny that as a possibility, but then voting them is the exact same outcome, no?  I'd rather test out the Mafiakill blocker first.

Eh, sure, that's fair. I was going to offer Fallacy to vote Quarque if Fallacy lets me remove that supposed EuchreJack-lovers-ability, but I guess you're right that we should actually try to use the block first.

Right, I'd rather see what happens with the Ability.

FoU -

What do you think the downsides are for you, if Max is indeed able to change your auto into something that doesn't bind your life to another players, and uses it?

Is there anything about that auto you like having?

About the web stuff, I read web as wanting me and sof dead (and we think he's scummy) and NJW dead (who said could help or hinder web's search for emeralds, and currently intended to hinder unless web helped kill scum).  I asked web for reads, especially of me, who he's voting, and if I understand him, he hates my typing and wants me dead town or not.  If he dies, he's cool with it, long as I die too - he doesn't even care if I'm town or not.  If he's town, he's cool with 2 dead town D1, long as I'm one of them.  Why are you reading this person as town?  Why are you ignoring all this anti-town focus?

Imp, I want you to be voted out with me because I think you're scum, and I'm okay dying to prove it.  Are you?  At the very best case, you are actively hindering Town, and I really don't see your death as a downside.  I've been in two games with you where you've consistently done precisely jackshit, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't see you dying, Town or scum, as a bad thing.  Why do you ignore all the things I say until I say them again?

Would you like for me to re-post where I explained why I think you're scum?  We can keep doing the thing where I keep posting the same thing because you didn't read it the first time!  It never gets old!

Max is right.  I don't really care if I die.  I care that scum is caught, and I'm okay trading myself for you because I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE TOWN.

[Imp]

you are actively hindering Town

Going to ask you to assume that I'm asking sincerely, and answer as if you intended to inform.

How do you see me as actively hindering town?

[Maximum Spin]

I've been in two games with you where you've consistently done precisely jackshit, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't see you dying, Town or scum, as a bad thing.

Consider that Imp was town in those. Even if you think it's the worst play ever, I would still prefer to lynch scum. Wouldn't you?

[webadict]

you are actively hindering Town

Going to ask you to assume that I'm asking sincerely, and answer as if you intended to inform.

How do you see me as actively hindering town?

You've continued to ignore things I've told you, you're tunneling, and you're overvaluing your own life.  Remember, if I'm scum, trading 1 for 1 with me is a good deal unless you can trade 2 for 0.  Your goal shouldn't be continuing to push me because I either don't have any more information to give you or I'm not planning on giving you any more.  It should be finding another scum to get voted, but you're not pushing or furthering other cases.  Why not?

I've been in two games with you where you've consistently done precisely jackshit, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't see you dying, Town or scum, as a bad thing.

Consider that Imp was town in those. Even if you think it's the worst play ever, I would still prefer to lynch scum. Wouldn't you?

That is a fair point, and both you and ToonyMan have made it.  I keep doing this to myself and engaging Imp, and it's my fault.

Do you think Imp is Town?

[Imp]

Would you like for me to re-post where I explained why I think you're scum?

If you think you already did that, no.  I've already read it.  I don't read it as 'I think imp is scum' and especially not 'for reasons'.

I have no idea if talking to you even can be productive.

This one's just insult/bullying/you venting hostility, and it's false.

I'll start off with the obvious part of that no one really needs a case against you.

This one's just insult/bullying/you venting hostility, and it's false.

Your removal is a net benefit to Town regardless of whether you are Town or not.

This one's a you problem, and something you should maybe work on, because it can drive players away from the game.  Wonder if I'm the only one you find so impossible to tolerate?

Personally, I want to policy-execute you every game, and I try hard to fight the itch of immediately calling for your execution at the beginning of games.

This one's a you problem, and something you should maybe work on, because it can drive players away from the game.  Wonder if I'm the only one you find so impossible to tolerate?

It biases my judgment, and it doesn't make you get any better, so I generally just try to ignore you, lest I unleash a torrent of probably deserved insults your way.

This one's false, ignores my reasoning and actual case.  You are correct, my timing fits your statement here, but no, that is not my reason or my only reason.  And I've stated my case against you.

However, the issue here is that the only reason you're really voting for me is that I insulted you.

You can say that, doesn't make it true.  I mean, there's even a name for this kind of attack and illogic.

The reason I believe that is because your evidence continues to fall apart upon any amount of scrutinizing or interrogation.

Not particularly, but I do look for information at all times.  And this is NAI, for me and others.

You are looking for evidence after-the-fact.

Not sure of your reasoning here, but the whole of your 'case' as to 'why I am scum' hasn't even been made yet.

It does not appear to factor into your decision at the moment.

It may feel this way to you.  You're wrong.  And I don't 'always' go for you.  I am genuinely concerned about you, and increasingly so, this game.

This makes your case feel disingenuous, and it's not particularly surprising, since I'm always an easy target because people can't read me.

This is interesting.  Do you think it's because you can 'refill Qua, under some circumstances, and think Qua can stop the mafia kill?'  I'm not convinced that Qua directly said that, and meant it as a blanket case.  Qua specifically said they might be able to save toony, and definitely would be able to stop the mafiakill, but is that even correct?  Does Qua even know?  I think the two are linked.  I wonder if Qua misread what Toony said and thought the mafiakill for sure would be coming at Toony, which maybe Qua means Qua can do something about.  Your presumptions about this remind me of scum Hector last game, presuming and puffing up my claim of being able to 'cure the poison'.  Totally not what I said there, very scummy, very scummy of you too.  And Hector was scum when he misread and abused my statements there too, and you're doing a very similar garbage presumption claim of what Qua said.

Or maybe you mean you have some other way to stop it.  Great.  Hope you do, if you're alive to.  If it looks like you're working for town, if you're pro-town, I won't go for you.  I'm going for you because of your anti-town-ness this game, in what I read of your posts and evaluations of others, and where your attention seems to be.

Additionally, I have a way to help stop the Mafiakill, and you seem to completely not care about this.

But I don't have it/one.  And what you focused on was again, a misread of an ability that would not have worked as you state, and could have set up for a lot of problems for town/protected scum.  It's highly abusable, and awful strategy, to my read.  And my comparison to an item that could instant win - that's hypothetical.  I don't have one.  You misrepresent massively and without concern for town.

I could use the argument that you freaked out about having an instant win for Town, but I don't really care about that one.

Sure, but again, this is not how or why I'm scum.

The alternative take is that I find you incompetent, but both can be true.

None of your 'case for why I am scum' is 'evidence I am scum', as I understand that evidence.  Half of it's direct insult, and calls for my death no matter my role.  The other half is incorrect/bias/opinion/your emotion and nothing to do with if I'm scum or not.

[Maximum Spin]

Do you think Imp is Town?

Uh...

You know what, sure, yes. At least for now. If I later have any doubts I'll be sure to let you know.

[ToonyMan]

Max feels good to me.

Their reasoning for why FoU could be town because they wouldn't hard defend Jack so hard feels correct.

Web is lost in the Impfield.

If Elephant can be trusted then maybe they are onto something.

Max and Elephant points towards Crystal being possible scum.

Maybe Sofanthiel is really a red herring, therefore Jack and Crystal are my scumpicks.

Unsure of NJW but want to trade with them and don't have any problems with them.

[webadict]

Do you think Imp is Town?

Uh...

You know what, sure, yes. At least for now. If I later have any doubts I'll be sure to let you know.

Am I Knightwinging this?

[Maximum Spin]

[too much]

On the other hand, Imp... you could've just said "NO, U", it would have been a lot quicker.

This isn't insult/bullying/me venting hostility, it's me asking you to make posts that commensurately reward the time it takes to read them. You definitely did not need to do the "repeat the exact same criticism" joke more than once, if at all.

I actually dislike this post a lot, but I'm still not going to vote you.

Am I Knightwinging this?

Right now, yes, but I 100% understand why in every way, just so you know. You're wrong, but I wish you weren't.

Maybe Sofanthiel is really a red herring, therefore Jack and Crystal are my scumpicks.

I feel like I can't currently think of a reason why it couldn't just be all three.

[Imp]

Your goal shouldn't be continuing to push me because I either don't have any more information to give you or I'm not planning on giving you any more.  It should be finding another scum to get voted, but you're not pushing or furthering other cases.  Why not?

You're still misreading, misrepresenting, or misleading.  I don't know which, but you're wrong.

Here, again, are my already posted reads.

I am concerned about and paying attention about every player in this game.  From the ones I think most likely to be town to, you, the one who is my top scum pick.  I am engaging with each person, evaluating, and sharing my reads about.

So.... tell me more about how I'm not pushing or furthering any other cases?

Because... it sounds to me like you want the votes off of you, and that's the one behavior from me that you will accept as me pushing or furthering any cases besides you.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm just going to do the thing. CrystalizedMire
Toony? Web? Anyone?

[Imp]

On the other hand, Imp... you could've just said "NO, U", it would have been a lot quicker.

This isn't insult/bullying/me venting hostility, it's me asking you to make posts that commensurately reward the time it takes to read them. You definitely did not need to do the "repeat the exact same criticism" joke more than once, if at all.

I actually dislike this post a lot, but I'm still not going to vote you.
[/quote]

Got it.  What you're saying right now does not read to me as insulting/bullying/you venting.

You're stating your reaction in reasonable and understandable terms.

On second thought, I would have gladly spoilered that, but I'm as glad I commented on it as I presume web was to write what I commented on.

Maybe that's NAI from him, but it sure isn't pro-town in fact or act.  It's a aggressive and harmful act, and to call it 'why I'm scummy' - is scummy of him and I'm glad to clearly, line by line, explore it for any trace of actual real scumhunting.

I don't see any.  I don't read pro-town in any of his posts this game.  And I have read pro town behavior from him -  in a game I was in with him when he was town.  Read it towards me, towards others.  I don't see it this game towards me or others.  Maybe nobody can read him.  I've been wrong before.  I am reading scum behavior and motivation here, even if I'm wrong.