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[notquitethere]

The clamour of the election chamber rises to a roar...

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack - [2] Sofanthiel, Maximum Spin
- FallacyofUrist - [2] NJW2000, Toonyman
- Imp - [1] webadict,
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin - [2] Quarque, Euchrejack
- NJW2000 -
- Sofanthiel - [1] Elephant Parade
- Toonyman -
- TricMagic - [1] FallacyofUrist
- Webadict - [2] Imp, Crystalizedmire
- No Elimination

Current Possible Eliminations: Euchrejack, Maximum Spin, FallacyofUrist, Webadict

Hammer at 7 votes. Day ends 1st February 11am GMT, in approximately 34.5 hours.



Trades

Well constructed trade offers:

TricMagic: Trade Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass for Robert Louis Stevenson's Inkstained Bible Page
Webadict: Trade Green Chaos Emerald for an Apple.
Quarque: Trade an apple for a green emerald.
NJW2000: Trade Wishbone for Robert Louis Stevenson's Inkstained Bible Page
Toonyman: Trade Robert Louis Stevenson's Inkstained Bible Page for Wishbone


Let me know if I've missed anything. But don't expect any vote counts for the next 9 hours or so as I'm going to bed!

[Elephant Parade]

I will also add that Max generally hates playing the day game on Day 1 as town. He only truly relishes it as mafia.  Which tends to give Max away a lot. Max just isn't his obtuse annoying Day 1 town self.

This isn't the usual Day 1, IMO. We skipped RVS entirely, for one thing.

[EuchreJack]

@Fallacy: Could you
1) Place a vote on someone that is not NJW2000 or Toonyman
2) With a case laid out as to why that person is scummy
3) With a list of two other people you suspect of being scum

...
I think it would help you with your town game

[EuchreJack]

I will also add that Max generally hates playing the day game on Day 1 as town. He only truly relishes it as mafia.  Which tends to give Max away a lot. Max just isn't his obtuse annoying Day 1 town self.

This isn't the usual Day 1, IMO. We skipped RVS entirely, for one thing.

Oh, this isn't the usual Day 1, hm? Does that mean, I dunno, that other things could be different? Hm?
And if Max's meta read is invalid, could perhaps the meta read of some other person or people also be invalid? Hm?
...
But Max has been in other games that mostly dispenses with RVS, so it doesn't change my opinion. I assume that was your reason for bring it up, hm?

[EuchreJack]

This vote count sucks. It reeks of desperation and cowardice. So, for your viewing pleasure, a Mini-Jackening.

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack - [2] Sofanthiel, Maximum Spin <- Losers
- FallacyofUrist - [2] NJW2000, Toonyman <- Brave, but perhaps misguided fools
- Imp - [1] webadict, <- Sore Loser
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin - [2] Quarque, Euchrejack <-  The cool kids
- NJW2000 -
- Sofanthiel - [1] Elephant Parade <- Lonely loser that might be onto something
- Toonyman -
- TricMagic - [1] FallacyofUrist <- Is Fallacy (which is a greater insult than even my clever mind can concoct)
- Webadict - [2] Imp, Crystalizedmire <- Dumb Losers, but hey maybe they see something? We'll never know

[EuchreJack]

Hm, Tric isn't voting? That actually IS suspicious.

[webadict]

I'm also a bit annoyed that everyone is obsessed with the fact that I drew SK in Supernormal, and completely forget everything else about that role, including that I was given a pro-town win condition.

Shame you're annoyed about that.

Umm, I'm not even thinking about it, if that helps with your annoyance.

That they're voting you, is that the only thing that seems scummy to you about sof and Max?

Ok, then were Web's most predominate critics his top picks as being town or his top picks of being scum?

Great question.  I'm one of them.

Hey, web, what's your reasons for appearing to think I'm not town/scum?

I get your general NAI complaints that sound like you just want me out of the game.

Got a case against me?  Your 'bandwagon imp' looks all lonely.

Got cases against anyone you're after, other than they're inconvenient to you/don't trust you?

I'll start off with the obvious part of that no one really needs a case against you.  Your removal is a net benefit to Town regardless of whether you are Town or not.  Personally, I want to policy-execute you every game, and I try hard to fight the itch of immediately calling for your execution at the beginning of games.  It biases my judgment, and it doesn't make you get any better, so I generally just try to ignore you, lest I unleash a torrent of probably deserved insults your way.

However, the issue here is that the only reason you're really voting for me is that I insulted you.  The reason I believe that is because your evidence continues to fall apart upon any amount of scrutinizing or interrogation.  You are looking for evidence after-the-fact.  It does not appear to factor into your decision at the moment.  This makes your case feel disingenuous, and it's not particularly surprising, since I'm always an easy target because people can't read me.  Additionally, I have a way to help stop the Mafiakill, and you seem to completely not care about this.  I could use the argument that you freaked out about having an instant win for Town, but I don't really care about that one.

The alternative take is that I find you incompetent, but both can be true.

I don't really like NJW, nor his conclusions, nor his take that I'm third party.  It's lazy, as has been his contributions to the game until fairly recently.  I think calling me third party is a cop-out, essentially allowing him to continue to put me in a corner until it's convenient.  It's 3p hunting, which is why claiming a second win condition is kinda fun.  Anyone that's afraid of a second win con is stupid, because that's a second win condition placed on top of the one that really matters.  Additionally, I actually think second win conditions are probably pro-Town, since I'm not sure how well they'd work when you're teamed.  Does your team get a second win condition?  I'd have to ask NQT.  Whatever.  I dislike the mechanical angle from NJW.  Regardless, I haven't seen any decent arguments against me from NJW, other than that.

Sofa is a bit of a wildcard, but I do not remember them being this crazy during Supernormal, though that's also particularly true while we were teamed.  In a sense, it feels like they are playing a different type of game.  I was hoping for more information from Crystal to determine their alignment, but I figure they're probably going to be eliminated anyway, and I'm okay with that.  Their current method of play doesn't find scum, nor does it further a Town win condition.

FallacyofUrist hasn't really furthered Town's knowledge much, but I see some evolution in their reads, so I'm less okay with their execution.  I'm not sure how anyone comes to the conclusion that Tric isn't Town, but perhaps I'm crazy.

Crystalizedmire is a bit quieter than I'd like, and I thought their take on sofa could've been better.  I also think they probably could've done more to help sofa not be insane.  Additionally, Crystalizedmire has focused too much on my powers, but is that my fault?  Maybe.  Overall, better take than NJW.

Other than that, if you want why I think everyone else is less like to be scum:  ToonyMan has knowledge about my role, so regardless of my thoughts on the matter, he can be proven.  Also, I think he's putting me at arms length because he's cautious about me being scum, which isn't something he tends to do as scum.  Also, I'm biased because I don't want to eliminate him.

Maximum Spin is fine.  He's gotten better, and I'm biased because I don't want to eliminate him.

Quarque I wasn't a big fan of at the beginning, but I felt that he has evolved in very positive ways as the game has gone on.  I also believe that he definitely has a way to stop Mafiakills, and the only way you're convincing me that he is Mafia is that he is just not Mafiakilling, which I'll be honest, if that's true, he got me good.

Elephant Parade is mindmelding with me, and that's pretty sufficient for me.

TricMagic is really easy to read, and I'm not sure I have to explain more.

Does this sufficiently answer your question?

[Elephant Parade]

I will also add that Max generally hates playing the day game on Day 1 as town. He only truly relishes it as mafia.  Which tends to give Max away a lot. Max just isn't his obtuse annoying Day 1 town self.

This isn't the usual Day 1, IMO. We skipped RVS entirely, for one thing.

Oh, this isn't the usual Day 1, hm? Does that mean, I dunno, that other things could be different? Hm?
And if Max's meta read is invalid, could perhaps the meta read of some other person or people also be invalid? Hm?
...
But Max has been in other games that mostly dispenses with RVS, so it doesn't change my opinion. I assume that was your reason for bring it up, hm?

Eh? Dunno if you're addressing me or just the room, but if it's the former, I don't see your point. I don't think I've interacted with you at all.

[Elephant Parade]

Crystallizedmire: What changed your mind/vibe reading?

Elephant Parade: Imp makes a lot of implausible scenarios as town, why do you think they're not town here?

Vibes

I have no idea how Imp both of our vibechecks.

To clarify, I don't have setup knowlegde. I thought we already established that webadict lied about having a wincon based on gems which is why I was suspicious of him. I didn't like how he lied for seemingly no reason. Anyways, unvote. I don't get bad vibes from Imp anymore. Only player giving me bad vibes right now is Fallacy but I'm giving them extra time.

[Maximum Spin]

Jack, you're being so stupid I almost think you could be town.

I don't hate D1. I never hated D1. Sometimes I hate certain parts of D1, and other days, like when it drags on for entirely too long or too many people are posting garbage. In fact, I hated D1 for most of yesterday. But you're wrong to assume some global pattern.

Meh, I have nothing more to say right now. Jack being stupid is probably NAI.

[Crystalizedmire]

Crystallizedmire: What changed your mind/vibe reading?

Elephant Parade: Imp makes a lot of implausible scenarios as town, why do you think they're not town here?

Vibes

I have no idea how Imp both of our vibechecks.

To clarify, I don't have setup knowlegde. I thought we already established that webadict lied about having a wincon based on gems which is why I was suspicious of him. I didn't like how he lied for seemingly no reason. Anyways, unvote. I don't get bad vibes from Imp anymore. Only player giving me bad vibes right now is Fallacy but I'm giving them extra time.

What changed my vibe is that Imp seems to be genuinely helpful.

[Elephant Parade]

Crystallizedmire: What changed your mind/vibe reading?

Elephant Parade: Imp makes a lot of implausible scenarios as town, why do you think they're not town here?

Vibes

I have no idea how Imp both of our vibechecks.

To clarify, I don't have setup knowlegde. I thought we already established that webadict lied about having a wincon based on gems which is why I was suspicious of him. I didn't like how he lied for seemingly no reason. Anyways, unvote. I don't get bad vibes from Imp anymore. Only player giving me bad vibes right now is Fallacy but I'm giving them extra time.

What changed my vibe is that Imp seems to be genuinely helpful.

More specifically?

[Crystalizedmire]

These posts:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Go back and read what I said like an hour ago about NJW.

As for CM... maybe you should be thankful that I stopped voting you, hm?

So, you think NJW is 'more townie'.  Do you have reasons?

Scum can easily say 'oh X is townie' and it's hard to have reasons.

But you know this.  You know how to play.  This does not look like you town, except you'll agree to vote anyone other than yourself, even a fellow townie.  But you think and reason as town.  I know, I grilled you hardcore FoU's last game.  You have a brain and use it well.  There at least.

I am really worried about scum!web.  That guy's freaking smart and warned that he looked scum, how and why, and shifted style - or he was never scum, and I'm wrong with my read of him, and he did the same for townie reasons.

I'd love to be wrong about scum!web.  But my concern about that's why I'm not voting you right now, that and no desire for a hammer.

And I really, really want to hear FoU's analysis of you, and reasons for supporting you so strongly.  FoU?

Jack, I know Imp is hard to read sometimes with the long posts but you skipped this question and now Imp asked new questions. I really would like to hear your answer to this one. Or you could continue to ignore it, that is also an answer.

Thank you.  I had taken it as a 'I won't touch that question' answer from EJ, and didn't bother myself at that time to comment past the oooookay.  I'm also quite interested in that answer, be it silence or anything else.

I think that I will join the Imp votetrain. I feel like Imp is actually talking less than when they are town, leading me to think maybe they have a chat in which they are talking. Imp, could you explain?

Only you can explain your feelings.  I talk when I have something to say, and get regularly pressured to talk less.

As far as a chat where I can talk in, thus talk less in thread - last game.  Where I had a private chat with God, and talked my head off in it, since God was kind enough to chatter back.

Otherwise, I think you may feel the need to pick someone to vote, and I was at 3 recently, and you want me back there.

You haven't said what you think is scummy about me, other than... how I talk.  So not sure there.  Maybe you can explain it?  If I had to guess your reason for vote imp, "Worked once recently, work again, imp is a person not me, good enough for me" is your reason.

I guess everyone likes Quarque now? Can anyone explain that to me?

I certainly can't.  Do you think I like Quarque?  I'm just not everyone?

Sorry, I'm just not heavily motivated to play in this chaotic game.

What a shame.  You sure seemed motivated last time I knew you were town, despite chaos there too.  Even when you were going on insulting sprees and publicly demanding to be modkilled, you still looked motivated.

I'm now fine with a EJ elim today, a downgrade from my recent post of reads.  I don't have a good eval for the Fal/EJ link, especially since Fal opened the game with it and maintained it.  Very much looking forward to continued discussion and developments.

EJ, what do you think of the reasons Tric gave for double elim today?  "Seems town" is great, but low effort and fast, got anything other than "This won't take long to type" in your thinking?  What seems town about Tric?  Do you agree that most players find that one hard to read, and what are you using to read that one?

Why is this chaotic game demotivating to you?  What's your reasons for this game's chaos making you unmotivated?  Since you're living that and already know it, I really expect you can explain that one.  Looks like you were fairly involved before the game actually started though, joking and participating both in the game's discord and the thread pre-game banter, so, what changed once you saw your role/the game started?

[Quarque]

I recall someone describing Sofanthiel as "hiding in audacity", which seemed like a valid explanation for his behavior. Sofanthiel seemed like he was going to get voted, so he throws out random weird stuff to see if he can not get voted out.

Sofanthiel is almost certainly town. Scum!Sofanthiel is anything but audacious.

webadict
I hate having to vote you, but you're my top scum read by now.

Number one, the quid quo pro attitude I'm seeing from you. Joking about taking bribes is one thing. But I repeatedly noticed you asking for or offering favours and it strikes me as something town doesn't do generally and you don't do as town in particular.
Number two, your voting seems unrelated to alignment. Finding Imp annoying isn't a good argument for a lynch if they're town. Imp looks pretty town. Your other top vote picks don't look scummy to me either.
Number three, by eliminating options. Very few other people besides you, Euchrejack and Max are giving me a scum vibe.

Tric? he's being dragon again
Fallacy? Fallacy is being unreasonable in the exact way that town Fallacy does.
Imp? I've been masochistic enough to reread every post of their scum game. Scum Imp really has a different vibe.
Toony? Nope, no scum vibe either.
Sofanthiel - nope, see above.
CM? Nope, by CM standards they're actively hunting.
Elephant? Well I've reread their latest scum game and it was ages ago, but scum elephant was far more eager to befriend people.
NJW? I don't see it. He's a bit lazy and boring but that is why I read him as town. His day1 game is stronger as scum, as he said himself and checks out from his latest scum game.

Euchrejack leaves me a sliver of doubt. I can think of an explanation for his lack of enthusiasm in a scum team, though. Maybe he was bussed for town credits.
 
Max, let's see. Starts with a ton of sarcastic humor and telling us he is too smart to play with the rest of us. Mixed with complains about always dying first.
I enjoy the humor and his complaints that the rest of us are idiots are entirely fair, but the point is - it hardly does a thing to help the game along. All this is eerily similar to how scum!Max behaved in the DogsVsCats game. But him hunting EJ leaves me a sliver of doubt.

But you leave me feeling the most worried, for the reasons above. I have to admit that I see too much evidence against you and if you weren't the most fun player to play with, I'd have voted you sooner.

[FallacyofUrist]

@Fallacy: Could you
1) Place a vote on someone that is not NJW2000 or Toonyman
2) With a case laid out as to why that person is scummy
3) With a list of two other people you suspect of being scum

...
I think it would help you with your town game

...

yeah, you're right. But why not NJW2000 or ToonyMan? Not that I was considering them in the first place, I just want to get your take on it.

Unvote temporarily. I need a better candidate than Tric. He could still be an SK, but it's looking less likely after the reveal, like 80% Town 15% SK 5% Mafia.