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[Imp]

I think this is our current votecount:

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack - [2] Sofanthiel, Maximum Spin,
- FallacyofUrist
- Imp - [3] Elephant Parade, NJW2000, Crystalizedmire
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin [3] FallacyofUrist, Webadict, Quarque
- NJW2000
- Sofanthiel - [2] Euchrejack, TricMagic,
- Toonyman
- TricMagic
- Webadict - [1] Imp,
- No Elimination

Current Eliminations: Imp, Maximum Spin

Spoiler: My reads, with towniest at top, but a number of folks I don't really have an organized sense of being townier than each other except 'don't want them eliminated today': (click to show/hide)

Toons:  Feels much like FoU's last game Toons to me.  Has a lot of game set up info definite or probable, despite saying they get most of it at night.  Strong town read, playing pro-town.  Absolutely unacceptable D1 elimination.

Tric: Opened with use of double elim oneshot and explanation of it.  Claims to have used their only ability, later offers to trade an item that has a read the dead for spheres used on them during phase of death.  Reasonable pro-town play, not agreeing to a D1 elim

FoU:  Claims a powerful role, not vanilla town (Could be non-vanilla town!).  Want to see more from, no read yet.  Shows a strong connection to EJ.  Not agreeing to a D1 elim

MS:  Claims town and stacked role.  Asking where mason buddies are, wanting them to call out.  Claims of masonchat with FoU, Web, Jim, later claims invite to masonchat, claims to convert people to town, claims EJ is favorite masonbuddy, claims to have no fun items (So role is stacked with unfun items, got it).  Definitely an MS flavor, cards close to chest.  Playing reasonably well.  Not agreeing to a D1 elim

CM: Curious and explorative, not much to read yet.  Reasonable for CM play, probably going to develop better with more time.  Not agreeing to a D1 elim

EP: Very vulnerable to MS's mind game trick from last game, cannot see qua without reading hector.  Otherwise decent strong play, good interaction with other players, reminds me of their play in FoU's last game.  Not agreeing to a D1 elim

NJW: Really want to see more interaction from.  Really want to hear more from.  Has given a lot of information in just 5 posts, all almost all mechanics and RVS focused.  Almost null because must have more to evaluate, but currently not agreeing to a D1 elim

EJ:  Shows a strong connection to FoU.  Very low activity, which could become a real problem, but willing to give them more D1 time, but I expect to see interaction and have enough to evaluate well before D1 ends.  Null read, oddly connected to FoU.  Null opinion about D1 elim, recommending you fix that when you can, EJ.

sof:  Lots of weirdness and actually much probing of other players.  I'm used to sof kinda only vaguely interacting with others, this looks pretty okay to me for a sof trying to figure stuff out, including others reactions.  I both like and dislike the focus on web, something feels right/wrong there, and on the weird posting style.  I would give sof more time, but not all game, to be more clearly useful, because the weird vague interactions also are hard to feel sure how to make use of information from - but there is stuff I like too, but also that bad feel..  Weakly disagreeing to a D1 elim, but if there was none I liked more, I'd accept this elim.

Qua:  Concerns:  Hunting roles with names (offered own name as well, possibly honestly), wants game set up knowledge, has apples and bananas for those trusted.  Says apples help against mafia, says can help against a kill, oneshot.  Feels faketown, strong survival/trade focused, not moving towards town wincon past 'use me for help - by trading'.  Not a town feel, but not anti-town either.  Would take a D1 elim over sof.

web:  Playing more like scum than town based on the two games I've been in so far with him.  Goals are get chaos emeralds, some are better than others, now offering to trade their emerald for an apple.  Can refill oneshots for a price that isn't a price.  A bit after I stated, "I don't read town in your behavior.  But wow are you interested in what you do care about." started to post more town-like.  Very bad vibe, glad for a D1 elim.

[Elephant Parade]

I actually forgot I was still voting you. Unvote

[notquitethere]

Bickering continues. From up the galleries, a wandering mendicant monk of the 13th order hectors those down below who dare invoke his name. The horse-trading starts, as the electors make promises, suggestions and threats...

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack - [2] Sofanthiel, Maximum Spin
- FallacyofUrist
- Imp - [2] NJW2000, Crystalizedmire
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin [3] FallacyofUrist, Webadict, Quarque
- NJW2000
- Sofanthiel - [2] Euchrejack, TricMagic
- Toonyman -
- TricMagic
- Webadict - [1] Imp
- No Elimination

Current Eliminations: Maximum Spin

Hammer at 7 votes. Day ends 1st February 11am GMT, in approximately 49 hours.


Trades

Well constructed trade offers:

TricMagic: Trade Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass for Robert Louis Stevenson's Inkstained Bible Page
Webadict: Trade Green Chaos Emerald for an Apple.
Quarque: Trade an apple for a green emerald.

Spoiler: Trade Rules Reminder (click to show/hide)

Trade: Declare in the thread in Bold, Purple text that you will trade [item name] for [item name]. After the day ends, but before the night begins, all valid trades will take place in a Trading Phase. A trade is valid if two players make matching purple bolded statements. If multiple players match, the last trade offers are picked. Players can only trade items they currently own before the Trading Phase, but any number of Trades may be made in a phase. Players will receive their new items at the start of the night (so hold off on submitting actions if you're expecting to receive an item). Players are privately informed of successful trades. You can't trade 'nothing' or other non-existent items. If a player has more than one item with the same name that would be a valid trade, a random one is picked or they may private message their preference during the day if there is a difference between the same-named items.

(Example: NQT declares he will trade the Eiffel Tower for a Mouse and Tiruin declares she will trade a Mouse for an Eiffel Tower during the trading phase, if NQT had an [item] Eiffel Tower and Tiruin had a [item]Mouse, the trade would be made.)

During the night, everyone may now give. It uses up a night action to do this (trading is more efficient).

The most recent trade takes priority, and so feel free to submit replacement offers. "Withdraw trade" is not a valid trade offer.

[Quarque]

Not ready to post a full reads list yet, but so far:

Tricmagic seems town
CM seems town
Sof seems town
Fal seems town, being his usual mad monkey self
Imp - had some doubts, but after rereading their scum game here, I'm starting to think town.

If I'm right, we're looking at a scum team of dangerous people who are difficult to read.

ToonyMan: I'm weirdly hung up on him giving Supernatural as an example of his most recent scum game -- it's the true and correct answer to the question, but he was an SK and he said after the end of the game that he basically played D1 like town (see  this discord message), making it perhaps a poor choice if one wants to see what scum!Toony looks like (presumably the point of the question). I am definitely overweighing this but it's where my head is at. Otherwise good

Thanks for pointing that out, do you know of a better place to start reading for a good scum Toony example?

[EuchreJack]

Sorry, I'm just not heavily motivated to play in this chaotic game.

I think my gem is a little different, but I have only been skimming the thread.

The gems specifically don't have their Spheres on them for other people, but Blue, Purple, and White are the ones that will probably be the most useful, with Blue being Setup Knowledge and the other two being a combination of Protection and... Don't worry about it.

Also, Tric, I don't want ToonyMan executed, specifically because he can confirm my Actions and find Emeralds, plus his existence makes sense to me.  I can keep reseting Quarque, which might allow us to get a couple of free executions.

@sofa:  I didn't answer your questions because if you were Quarque's Mason, that would explain your mania and sheeping.  I probably still won't answer your questions but only because I don't want to find them while I'm on my phone.

@Imp:  Rude!

@Web: I won't give up my night action to give away my Blue Emerald, but I would like to provide it to you in exchange for your providing everyone Setup Knowledge unless your newfound knowledge will considerably hurt Town.  I'll trust your desire to honor your deals will generally keep you from using this escape clause unless absolutely necessary. Maybe you can figure out a method of acquiring the Blue Emerald, whether it be trade or theft?

Brutal is right given the number of tunnels in your argument. You could drive a train through a mountain with them.

So you're openly acknowledging that sofanthiel is tunneling yet you're still voting them? I understand that scum can still tunnel but chances are a townie is more likely to tunnel. If you believe that sofanthiel is trying to discredit webadict for bad reasons, share them(unless you already shared them and I just missed it).
Sorry about the sofanthiel posts. It is the only player which I have a strong opinion about. I swear we're not masons this time.

@Crystal: Just an FYI, your ability to read sofanthiel may be skewed, since in your last game you were masons until sofanthiel got converted to scum.
Try to distinguish between Town sofanthiel and Scum sofanthiel please?
I'm inclined to trust you a bit, since you are usually less talkative as scum.

I think that I will join the Imp votetrain. I feel like Imp is actually talking less than when they are town, leading me to think maybe they have a chat in which they are talking. Imp, could you explain?

[EuchreJack]

Toony is absolutely Town and I have no intention of changing my opinion about him until Day 2.
But other than that canned response, he usually reads me as suspicious when I'm not active, such as this game. So Null Silly, Toony is absolutely Town
I liked how Fallacy pointed out how overly helpful Toony was.  Toony does that...in most games, although moreso as scum and it further proves how Toony is Town.
So, Toony is town because historically saying anything else gets me lynched Day 1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[expletive directed at Toonyman deleted]

But that is enough about Toony. Too much, actually.

I also trust Web's read of Toony, which probably won't completely and utterly doom us all.

[EuchreJack]

Point of Clarification: I like the Max vote, currently. It is my intention to elevate Imp to join Max in being eliminated. I think it important to clarify this.
Current scum picks are Max & Imp. NJW2000 worries me also, as he's pretty good. Then again, I always read NJW2000 as scum Day 1.

I guess everyone likes Quarque now? Can anyone explain that to me?

[Imp]

I think that I will join the Imp votetrain. I feel like Imp is actually talking less than when they are town, leading me to think maybe they have a chat in which they are talking. Imp, could you explain?

Only you can explain your feelings.  I talk when I have something to say, and get regularly pressured to talk less.

As far as a chat where I can talk in, thus talk less in thread - last game.  Where I had a private chat with God, and talked my head off in it, since God was kind enough to chatter back.

Otherwise, I think you may feel the need to pick someone to vote, and I was at 3 recently, and you want me back there.

You haven't said what you think is scummy about me, other than... how I talk.  So not sure there.  Maybe you can explain it?  If I had to guess your reason for vote imp, "Worked once recently, work again, imp is a person not me, good enough for me" is your reason.

I guess everyone likes Quarque now? Can anyone explain that to me?

I certainly can't.  Do you think I like Quarque?  I'm just not everyone?

Sorry, I'm just not heavily motivated to play in this chaotic game.

What a shame.  You sure seemed motivated last time I knew you were town, despite chaos there too.  Even when you were going on insulting sprees and publicly demanding to be modkilled, you still looked motivated.

I'm now fine with a EJ elim today, a downgrade from my recent post of reads.  I don't have a good eval for the Fal/EJ link, especially since Fal opened the game with it and maintained it.  Very much looking forward to continued discussion and developments.

EJ, what do you think of the reasons Tric gave for double elim today?  "Seems town" is great, but low effort and fast, got anything other than "This won't take long to type" in your thinking?  What seems town about Tric?  Do you agree that most players find that one hard to read, and what are you using to read that one?

Why is this chaotic game demotivating to you?  What's your reasons for this game's chaos making you unmotivated?  Since you're living that and already know it, I really expect you can explain that one.  Looks like you were fairly involved before the game actually started though, joking and participating both in the game's discord and the thread pre-game banter, so, what changed once you saw your role/the game started?

[webadict]

NJW2000, lots of waffles on this wagon, and it's a good time to explore before consolidating.

@EJ:  I can't take your Emerald because I'm action committed to Quarque, but I will try to take it another Night, should things go well.  I might be able to trade for it Tomorrow, but I'm afraid I can't trade for it Today, either for role and poor in item related reasons.

[Imp]

EuchreJack: Hasn't said much. Rightfully recognizes sofanthiel's garbage. inf / 10 Usefulness points, town.

Except you, EuchreJack. I will sheep you Day 1 if you ask nicely.

Sorry, I'm just not heavily motivated to play in this chaotic game.

Hey, FoU, need your evaluation here.  What's going on between you and EJ?

What's the basis for your intense support of EJ?  Why do you think so highly of that one this game?

[NJW2000]

Ok, this is a bit dubious but I'll take the hot potato item. Don't action me with a protect or anything, my ability should take care of it on its own. If not... suspect Toony, I guess?

Trade Wishbone for Robert Louis Stevenson's Inkstained Bible Page

Hmm... this could be a blowback sphere meaning scum!Toony has to give a deadly item away, but if so, controlling the mafiakill is still something. And hey, if this is an awesome trick by scum!Toony that's going to blow up in my face, it's probably overdue.

Up to this point I have just been faffing about with mechanics and weak scumhunting, so I guess it's time to dive into the dumpster that this thread's turned into. Honestly, the null reads on me are pretty damning, as I have to admit I've just been watching stuff happen and prodding people. Readslist, if just to help me get my thoughts together.

Spoiler: reads (click to show/hide)

Reads
Town

Tric: I think mafia avoid giving town a double-elim. I think town!Tric uses the big shiny red button instantly, reveals his emerald, and tries to grab the mafiakill magnet from Toony.

CrystallizedMire: I get the sense they genuinely wants to help, also the willingness to vote Imp (a likely elim) on just vibes makes me think Town. That's a risky play for mafia.

sofanthiel: Jesus H. Bartholemew Christ. But mafia tend to try to work out what happened before responding to it. They were playful, aggressive and quite confused about the mechanics in the armed forces game, I think this may just be that turned up to 11.


Maybe Town
Quarque: responded well to votes on him, hasn't done the thing he did as mafia last game where he forced a case and committed to it, lots of townreads. Only reason he's not in the full town section is I don't like him talking about how towny and useful his apples make him.

Toonyman: I think the Bible Page he's asking people to take is NAI, as scum could be saddled with it on a blowback role. Haven't been impressed by the weak prods at Sofa, or the way he didn't actively try to find a way out of the Bible Page predicament, but he generally is a bit more aggressive than this as scum. Could see him as survivor, or just less invested town.

EuchreJack: the dialogue with himself, slightly scattered accusations, and townreading people suggests he's town to me. Not really sure though... feels like it's been a while since we played together.

ElephantParade:this is a hard one. I don't agree with their playstyle in general - I think it's slow, by-the-book and often nitpicky - but he hasn't tunneled much, his main read is actually due to vibe and not nitpicking, and he seems to be genuinely being constructive. I would usually expect someone who plays like EP to entirely nitpick, faff about and fade into the shadows D1. Kinda modelling scum!EP as being a bit like scum!Toaster, so might be very wrong here.

Imp: a heckin lot of talking, but asking a few good questions. Didn't love it when they outright probed me on how scum might take advantage of my role's weirdness, but may just have to let that pass. Only Web is this talkative as scum, so if I'm wrong here, I guess he has competition.


Possibly scum/3p
Webadict: more of a mechanical focus than usual, discussion slightly tends towards creating arguments over putting pressure on folks. Coaching QQ a bit feels more usual web. Could also just be emerald-collecting aligned... which isn't great, as I suspect that would give him an incentive to kill people.

Max: I dunno what he is, he's hard to read. Given I have a lot of townreads, wouldn't be too upset to see a Max elim today by POE.


Scum
FoU: The usefulness rankings looks like a way to look busy. I know FoU hasn't rolled town much, but come on, don't post a readslist that explicitly doesn't contain alignment reads, that's such a basic scumtell it's on the wiki. Very boring focus on Spin and Sofanthiel - we get it, they're coasting/flipping out, yeah, yeah. Isn't putting real pressure on them. I feel like this is a simplistic read for me to have but I may just be right.

tl;dr:

FallacyofUrist:

- going entirely by vibe, who is the scummiest player?

- where would you sit in terms of usefulness, if a 13th player was making your usefulness list, and why?

- if a very dull and stubborn group of people decided you were a lynch candidate entirely on the basis of the mafiascum wiki's Information Instead of Analysis scumtell, how would you try to exonerate yourself?

[EuchreJack]

I think CrystallizedMire would be a productive vote.

@NJW: I am reading you a bit higher as town, in part because your Day 1 reads are usually....poor. But keep voting Fallacy, and I will vote you. He's not the Day 1 Lynch.

[EuchreJack]

Oh, and Tric is definitely Town, for reasons others have stated. I have to get back to work, but yeah Tric is town.

[Imp]

Oh, and Tric is definitely Town, for reasons others have stated. I have to get back to work, but yeah Tric is town.

oooooookay.

When you have time again, what's your read on NJW?

I think CrystallizedMire would be a productive vote.

Thoughts, awesome.  Why do you think CM would be a productive vote?

[Quarque]

Why is this chaotic game demotivating to you?  What's your reasons for this game's chaos making you unmotivated?  Since you're living that and already know it, I really expect you can explain that one.  Looks like you were fairly involved before the game actually started though, joking and participating both in the game's discord and the thread pre-game banter, so, what changed once you saw your role/the game started?

Jack, I know Imp is hard to read sometimes with the long posts but you skipped this question and now Imp asked new questions. I really would like to hear your answer to this one. Or you could continue to ignore it, that is also an answer.