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[Lenglon]

Fair.

[Jim Groovester]

I'll be at work, which blocks the bay 12 mafia forums, so I can only check on my phone, which I am away from for most of the day, and I need to do the Christmas shopping I didn't do yesterday.

My point is that I will probably miss most of what happens today, including the deadline.

@Toony: I don't believe millers should claim. If they don't look scummy, they won't be suspected. It's a distraction in a game with this many players. Why are you trying to muddy up the waters with this many players? 

This is a pretty weird thing for somebody to say if their role specifies that they alignment inspect as something else. Maybe EuchreJack doesn't think anything of an ability that says he inspects as an atypical alignment and it doesn't factor into his decision making when he makes this statement, but who knows. EuchreJack does say he inspects as a pirate, but only after ToonyMan and Imp say pirate is a mafia faction.

?  I do not follow that logic.  It makes complete sense to me that EuchreJack, a Miller, states that Millers should not claim, and then doesn't claim Miller until he accidentally asks if people want to be Millers.  I believe he has even stated this exact opinion in previous games!  Unfrotunately, I am PFP, but I vaguely remember him stating a similar opinion in FBYOR5, and while he was Mafia in that game, I do not believe that opinion is reflective of his alignment and rather is an opinion he holds in general.  There may be other games, and I will look for them later.

The sequence is backwards because Jack asked if people wanted to be millers first. By the time he states his opinion about whether millers should claim, he had already come in on the side of millers claiming.

The sequence is something like this:

i) Jack reads his role PM
ii) a) Jack reads that he is a pirate; Jack reads he can recruit others to be pirates
    or
    b) Jack reads he inspects as a pirate; Jack reads he can recruit people to a chat where they inspect as pirate
iii) Jack openly claims his pirateness
iv) Jack very candidly states his opinion that millers shouldn't claim

If iia is the world we live in, I can see how he gets to iv. If iib is the world we live in, I don't know if I can believe that Jack could read he inspects as a pirate, reads that he can recruit other players into a chat where they also inspect as pirate, casually reveal his pirateness without stipulating he inspects as it, and then later state millers shouldn't claim. Unless 'ohhh Jack is such a fuckup ha ha lmao oh Jack what a silly guy he is' is the defense you're going with, which, okay, fair enough, but also, come on.

Anyways, you should be pushing Jack to reveal his pirate chat invitees before the end of Day.

[Imp]

Knightwing64:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I always appear to be lurking and this always makes me sus lmao.

I have school during the morning and whenever I get home I see ten pages of activity and it activates my procrastination syndrome.

Anyway, that’s the (valid) excuse for lurking I got

I still don’t think Jack is scum. I don’t believe Imp is scum either. I’m reluctant to say it bc Toony town claimed me but I’m a little Sus of him. Nothing concrete though

Nice work.  Wanna encourage you to keep it up.

See, you got people here who have to figure you out.  We have at least two ways, and some of us have only two ways, so assume it's gonna be 1 of these 2:

You post so we can 'read your mind'.

You die and we see your roleflip.

You really wanna be figured out, in a way that doesn't get you killed, unless you wanna get killed.

Talking's the safer town way.  But you wanna tell enough so we 'can read your mind'.

So do a bit more, when you can.

Why do you think what you think?

You still don't think Jack is scum BECAUSE ....

You don't believe Imp is scum either BECAUSE ....

And about that Toony stuff... forget your fear.  Talk.  Engage.  It's not sus at all to have REASONS to be sus of someone.  Even if they vote you.  Even if they vote you before you say why you think they're sus.  Your real reasons are something to share, unless you are way more than 'sus' and you have to lie. 

ALSO you're not alone here.  Say what you see.  Who cares if ToonyMan 'claimed' you.  I sure don't, yet.  Should I care?  But what are you sus about him?  Me reading your words can make me go OMG I didn't see that I see it now OMG get that player's head off now.  Your real reads can make other people play better.  What you add to this makes you worth keeping around.

Or not.  What are you adding to this?  And how are you going to fix it, and add more, if you're lucky enough to be allowed more time?

Secretdorf:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm furious that you missed entire people who have stated claims about why they think EuchreJack is not Mafia.  Some of whom have discussed this more than once with specific individual people.  That is an issue because it suggests, "Hey, Secretdorf isn't actually following much of the thread."

That matters because it means "Whatever Secretdorf needs to do to win, it doesn't require following much of the thread."

Do we already know what that looks like?  Yeah.  Usually I'd say scum.  Not this time.  But third party and anti-town, yeah.  You're not a hunter, not an ally, at least not of scum or town, you have very few interests.  But oh, you know your votecounts, you sure do.

I think you're a Serial Killer, or one in the making.  I want you dead, but I don't care when.  Except I don't think you have much value beyond 'right, gotta go'.  And you just want anyone dead.  And it shows.  I hate you.

"Cruel killers of a dream, full well you merit death," she cries.
 
"Though you spread terror, pain, and fear, rough justice shall you see,
And as you have the hunters been, so shall you hunted be."
Now once again, out from her hands, the lightnings dance and flare.
Where once each man had stood ....

No no no, no time for dreams now, not this late in day.

I hope you're a night kill.  You're someone's problem and you maybe don't need the lynch but wow.

Are you seriously the second serial killer to reveal yourself to me this game, this very day?  I thought I didn't have any way to pick them out!

Because you were not listening, I tell you directly and now, Secretdorf.

1) I already stated my concerns about you.  So my death doesn't make you look innocent.
2) There's something weird about me that everyone paying attention knows, and serial killers didn't get personally told.  If you kill me, you help your enemies, if you have any.  You want to kill me last of your targets, if you have to kill me at all, to avoid helping the other ones who need you dead to win.
3) I may be wrong about you, I've openly stated I don't have much knowledge about Serial Killers.  But if you wanna live, you better start to play.

Did you forget, Secretive One, that you're not the only one with power in this game?  And the power of the lynch may be the least of all powers present?

"It does not help either that before this, I have not been voted even once, so I have been feeling, in a way, complacent and disengaged."

Pro tip.  Envision everyone present has the potential means to destroy you, by themself, at some point or another, if they ever think that helps their wincon.  Presume you have 'every other player in game' already thinking, openly or not, about if they want you dead, and that they, alone, have the power to kill you if they choose.  It'll cost them other choices, it'll cost them time... it might even directly help them.

Bored?  Disengaged?  Complacent?  Dead.  That's going to get you dead.

"Jack rolled pirate king, a pirate role"

Oh you precious fool.  So among the things you didn't bother to care about - this is a game of personal dreams.  Every one of us had the chance to say what they most wanted.  And insofar as possible, every one of us got that. I think.  I know I sure did.

And only two players have said even 1 word that makes me think they are not happy with their role.

1) Maximum Spin, who chose to show his terrifying dream to me, he wanted something he didn't get, as things currently stand.
2) EuchreJack, who said more than once, in more than one way, "I didn't get what I asked for.  And I don't like what I got."

What?  OMG.  In this game of dreams?  Game of dreams when, Egan_BW?  Now, sweetie, now, though different dreams, maybe, and I'm so sorry I don't dare step into yours, as things stand.

But, Serial Killer... I mean SecretDorf.  I see a strong indication for everything EuchreJack is doing that has everything to do with he can't possibly be scum.  And you read so little of the thread, obvious-Serial Killer, you don't even know that for any of the many reasons it's so screamingly loud to me.

What I demand of you, SecretDorf, is show your wincon, if you aren't already.

This doesn't mean roleclaim.  Nothing that easy.  If I wanted that, I'll take it when you're dead.  I want you to show me, in every post you make, every action you take, that you are moving towards a wincon I can tolerate - better yet, agree with and embrace.

So far, you have told me that I need you dead, your wincon is anti-mine.

When I roleflip - if I don't get converted before - I flip town.  And a few other things show.  Everyone paying attention already knows I made the claim that "When I die, almost everyone or actually everyone will wish I'd died later, and because of anyone but themself or their team(if they have a team) if they are of Serial Killer, Pirate, or Mafia alignment.

Hand delivering that to you now, Obvious-Serial-Killer.  In case you weren't listening any of the previous times.

Leans back and spits again.

I think you have a wincon.  Get to showing it, unless you already have.  If you have, great job, keep it up.  Someone will 'be with you shortly,' whenever that is.

TLDR:  I want Knightwing64 to do more and I explain why I think Secretdorf is playing like an obvious Serial Killer.

[Elephant Parade]

Spoiler: Elephant Parade: (click to show/hide)

"I can come up with one reason why you would post this as scum: to give yourself an excuse to be confusing and unhelpful. Given that you lost AFM3 by being too helpful, that strikes me as quite plausible! Maybe not as likely as an honest townsided-3P claim, but I have a hard time squaring that possibility with your weird logic throughout the game."

Sure.  I am going to interpret this as a request to explain how I might play in this game I were scum in this game.  Behavior such as you describe would be a first to me, though I can be motivated to be rude to those whose playstyles I actively and strongly find hostile and unpleasant.  I have never, ever chosen to play other than towards a town wincon.  I like this advice:

... find scum, which is your primary goal.

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.

...So be bold, and just do the best you can. You're going to play this by aggressively questioning everything you find odd or scummy. This is to get you in the habit of asking questions a lot, since that's how the game of mafia is played and won.

Like many of us, I try to play similarly between games regardless of alignment.  If I were scum now, I'd be trying to play in a apparently town-helpful way that slightly missed the mark (as town plays can easily do, for genuine reasons).  I failed to miss the mark that game, the plan was good.  I was not chosen to be a survivor, and had no way to change that, though I tried to create one.  The chance didn't come.  That was a weird-mechanics game with little wriggle room and genuinely a mechanical means with a true 60% chance of a town win.  Town-imp would never walk away from that.  Would say it existed too.  Max claimed he saw it first, and probably did, I didn't understand.  100% no way I could avoid that, to my thinking, without looking not-town-imp.

Instead, the question to ask is, 'why would scum imp use this method here?  Why would town imp do it?'

I can't tell you why scum imp would do what I'm doing.  Surely I'd have a better answer, in this game, as scum - I legit didn't have wriggle room in the shooting mechanics game.

But I can tell you why town imp would do what I'm doing, I already did, many times.  It's literally the only reason why I can imagine town-imp, or survivor imp, or any other imp doing what I'm doing.  Because I have no wriggle room, because I done messed up post 1.

That seems plausible enough, though having seen only one of your games, I don't really appreciate the appeal to meta. I still find your some of your play thus far pretty off and none of this cancels that out.

Elephant Parade: Please tell me more about why you dislike NQT.

He hasn't posted much and some of what he has posted has given me bad vibes. Not a good combo! Also, looking over his posts, he's barely interacted with anyone. Most of them are essentially addressed to the room.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not-Quite-There, Not-Quite-There
Friendly neighborhood Not-Quite-There
Bogus tells
He's ignored
Analysis, his reward
Look out
Here comes the Not-Quite-There

Two interesting things so far. Jim's ability, and Web's role null claim. Web says it's OP but wiping out someone's role isn't necessarily more powerful than just killing them (though what happens to their wincon?)

Lenglon, we shouldn't give town ally claims a free pass— I've seen serial killers say that they're town aligned more than once! How does your list of questions compare to BHK's?

BHK, I'll certainly give a reads list on D2. How about you?

Tric, do you think your role is going to be decisive this game?

Elephant Parade did you know they used to parade elephants across the frozen ice of the river Thames during winter festivals a few hundred years ago?

Flavor, summary, and RVS. Null.

Busy two days, but now catching up on the thread. Want to get a feel for the dynamics unfolding. Before I enter a flashback, here's an bold and exciting role claim:

(spoiler=Identity reveal in this issue!)I'm town and I inspect as town.(/spoiler)

Jokey non-miller claim. Null.

Plot points

- Jim's Role: players position themselves whether or not they're afraid to be daykilled by Jim
- Max hints at secret power not to die. As usual he's a miller which I doubt. I always find this guy shady though.
- Webadict claims the power to wipe someone out of continuity (we ought be skeptical, he's a well known fabricationist regardless of alignment)
- EuchreJack can get players to join his pirate crew. He can leave a hat when he dies.
- Toony is a pirate-miller. Miller claiming is very fashionable in contemporary Bay12 meta, but so is giving people miller roles, and the specificity of the pirate role makes it more believable. Either Toony is an actual pirate or he looks like one as he claims.
- Hector (aristocrat), Sofanthiel (computer), Egan (RTD) or Imp (historical allegories, "watching the watchers") may have posting restrictions. If Tric wasn't Tric, he could have one. I think he just chooses to write like that.
- Tric almost certainly submitted another dragon role
- Imp claims to help scum factions on death... which is an odd thing for town to claim. Ill thought out? Scum-aligned? Hoping for a doc? A trap? Regardless of 'correct play', it feels town to me.
- Canadian Kitten is a self-evolver. (I think this unnecessary level of candidness is town-indicative.)
- Egan is running an RTD. I'll play along:
Hero
- Egan says that Pirates are second scum team, and that there are hunter third parties.
- Fallacy over-clarifies that Pirates would be scum in the thread. EJ rows back and claims to be pirate-miller after all and then starts spiralling, insulting everyone in what has come to be known as the Jackening.
- Web tries to steer the game away from an EJ lynch. Imp later notices this and suggests Web might already be on the pirate crew. Very believable.
- Almost half the player-base are voting Egan for some reason I somehow managed to miss. Is it just because they don't like RTDs??

What did I miss?


EuchreJack is undoubtedly the "correct" option today. I think the inevitable EOD mass-panic-voting could well resolve on EJ. The only thing that speaks against him accidentally outing himself as some kind of cult leader is that we have meta reasons to doubt Fallacy would put in a cult. But in an 18 player game, a limited conversion power isn't busted, I could see it happening. The spiralling did seem believable as "oh shit I have just lost the game before it already starte and now I'm throwing a tantrum".

But the funnier thing would be to vote out the most likely conversion target, Webadict. He's a slippery character and it'd be good to resolve the slot sooner rather than later. Flipping Wuba clarifies his puzzling defence of EJ and should tell us more about piracy.

The summary post I found wack enough to call out here. He gets some points for pushing a new wagon here, but I don't think it went anywhere?

I appreciate Max's hard line here. But I think we could see something which is not quite a cult. The three usual elements to a cult are: anti-town alignment, conversion, shared chat. Hector could have some but not all these elements. Here are some possibilities:
- Members of the pirate crew don't change their alignment, but they join a chat and get upgrades so long as the captain stays alive, so they have an incentive to target the other mafia team first.
- The same as above, but the converted die if the captain dies. Even stronger incentives!
- It's as EJ claims and piracy is a mechanic that turns people into millers.
- Pirates gain secondary alternatie wincons (unlikely, but not impossible in a BYOR)

Either way, swinging in with a sideways strategy seems the best approach. Resolving EJ at this stage tells us something about the player we know the most about.


Secretdorf, I'm not mafia so I refuse to acknowledge what may or may not be written in your hint

Imp, good stuff. Yes, I'm reasonably convinced now that EJ can't be a classic cult leader (also a classic cult leader would never announce themselves in thread).

Mechanical speculation and support for EJ's lynch.

Max, that would be very funny. How do you square Imp trying to say an Imp death would help scum? Proactive defence for a scum player? I think it's more bold and self-exposing than scum normally are, but obviously it's not impossible.

Elephant Parade, I had 150 posts to read back, so I definitely did some skimming, so thanks for updating me about some of the claims. None of what I wrote was "filler", it's all genuinely me trying to work out what's going on in the game and posting what I found.

Finally, interaction!

This isn't ambiguous unless you just can't parse the indirect phrasing.

When I die, it's likely everyone will wish I had died later, unless I'm the last kill needed for that side that needs me dead.
If I die by action of Pirate, Mafia, or SK - you benefit your enemies more than you benefit yourself.  I predict you and your team (if you have a team) will wish someone else had killed me, and killed me later in the game at that.

The claim is that if Imp is killed by an anti-town faction, it'd help that anti-town faction. Is Max trying to obfuscate here?

It's always been extremely ambiguous whether an Imp death is supposed to help or hurt scum and exactly who it'll help or hurt.

More interaction!

This Imp stuff is giving me a headache. I thought I knew what was being said but apparently not. Lynch all players with posting restrictions in order of annoyness is starting to feel like a viable strategy.

Jokey post. Null.

Web, you're right that reasoning wasn't very good. Two things I want to say: 1. thanks for telling me about your other claims, as I said before, I knew I would have missed a few things skimming to catch up, and I guess that was one of them. 2. I thought it'd be more fun to vote you than EJ. And it was probably more productive? I've learned a few things.

Max, Tric's role does look awfully like a conversion role. Like the kind of cult-adjacent thing I was suggesting could happen.

All to say:

EuchreJack is the obvious choice today, but we've got enough time to shake some more trees.

Votes EJ but doesn't ask anyone any questions, EJ included. Says there's time to shake more trees but doesn't actually do any tree-shaking!

You all have to admit, this is pretty good Day 1 drama. EITHER EJ accidentally self-implicated, had a meltdown, and eventually through encouragement of Web et al pulled himself out OR he is just a fake millerifier like he claims and went into a meltdown because his opening gambit shot himself in the foot. People seem to have become swayed towards the latter but I'm not sure I have a full sense why.

Imp, maybe it's your confusing post style, maybe I'm just tired, but could explain a little more clearly why you think EJ is in the clear?

Lenglon, I don't think a Canadian Kitten vote is likely today. Who's your #2 and #3 suspect?

A big reason for eliminating EJ today is it means we definitely get to talk about something different on D2. But if he genuinely is spiralling townie, then obviously let's not do that.

A little more interaction for the road. I don't like that the post ends on waffling.

Lots of null content, some waffling, no sustained interaction, little proactive interaction, nothing that's really gone anywhere.

Also, if anyone wants to bandwagon NQT, I would be down for that.

Sick.

Notquitethere: Why haven't you asked any questions of the guy you're voting to execute?

[sofanthiel]

Says he’s struggling with all the players here, which is fine. I find people saying that a little amusing since the number of players actually active and posting to keep track of isn’t that much more than a usual game

It isn't just that the game is challenging to get completely engulfed in; it's the fact that I've been very busy as I've been trying to do so.

I do have to inform you that I may not be able to squeeze out as many posts as I usually do on weekends next month.

I have to split my attention between two activities that both require nigh-full dedication.

saying that just… basically ignoring Esteemed Maximum Spin will be more useful than trying to engage with him?

While the rest of the post is mostly an expression of your opinionated perception of my behavior, the above is outright disinformation.  I never said that we should ignore Max, and it's mighty interesting how you provide quotes for everything but that claim!

Could you talk us through the mental calculus of the highlighted part, please?

At the time, I considered Jack to be a confirmed pirate, but I also vaguely remembered someone else being accused of likely being part of his crew.  EJ later told me that the person in question was Toony.  The whole thing didn't make much sense since Toony was eager to aid in the battle against the pirates; regardless, I didn't take that into account because I did not yet have such knowledge.  Another basis for me to suspect that Max is a villain, which everyone mutually decided to ignore for whatever reason, is the following:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Given that EuchreJack seems committed to inviting me to his chat, let me just precommit to this: If my alignment changes at any future point, I will loudly announce this and then quit playing. If this is in some way related to the Pirate Chat I will also confirm everyone who is in it.

Don't your objectives change with alignment?  I distinctly remember how you specifically said that your sole overall strategy was winning and nothing else.  Announcing you've become a mafiaoso is not something a person who cares about emerging victorious would do, but declaring the threat of such an announcement... if that isn't an attempt at appealing to town (whether you get pirated in the future or already are) AND keeping EJ around, I don't know what is.

There, now we don't have to lynch him.

Curious indeed...  I may have a proposal for another current-pirate candidate.  Actually, you being part of the crew would explain the lack of high-seas-themed flavor text!

I consider Spin to be a likely pirate candidate, yes.  So, a total of three there and a total of three elsewhere.  There's rationale behind me putting the part you're inquiring about in brackets and adding "I'm content with ridding this ship of any unrighteous sailors before delving in and exploring such possibilities" at the end.  It was simply a speculative thought that I felt deserved to be put out there; I wouldn't bet that Imp, Egan, and Toony all secretly comprise a different mafia team, though I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if that turned out to be the case either.

Additionally, I want to point out that Jack asking to be modkilled and subsequently being persuaded to not do so reads like some elaborate charade to me.  Perhaps it was put on as an attempt to rid oneself of the pile-up by gaining sympathy.  Why would a person wish to be removed from the game due to in-game circumstances?  It definitely wasn't boredom here.

[ToonyMan]

PFP

I am unfortunately in the "work hit hard" timeline.

I really want to address something quickly.

On page 17 (default) after Imp and I talk about pirates but before FoU says anything:

I should point out, I can recruit 3 pirates at end of Day 1, and no more.

EuchreJack   omg.  Okay, Pirates are scum.  They are red.  They need to die for town to win.  I'd vote you myself but maybe you're jester (I don't know if there are jester).

Why are you telling us this?

Webadict, if you're taking votes for that power use, I am considering nominating EuchreJack, mindful that this may be a bad idea.

We should, based on what I have been told, treat that as equivalent to EuchreJack offering to nominate folks into the mafia team - it's just the other scumteam, if that is what red means.  Based on the wording of my PM, it is also possible that there are scum teams that do not yet exist, or there may be more than 2.

Hm, no.
Imp

Only reason I'm not voting you is because you suddenly posted this after my vote on Toonyman, who also seems to be making wrong assumptions about pirates.

Scum team Imp & Toonyman?

What wrong assumption of pirates are we making here? I think this is a very odd thing to say.

Just after:

I'd say you could recruit me, but it would be a bad idea.

Awh, and we did so well until evil Toonyman joined us. 
Oh well, guess others get the chance.

EuchreJack, you really need to answer my question; it wasn't just aimless rolefishing. What, exactly, does being made a Pirate do besides give access to a group chat?

It changes your alignment inspection to Pirate.
As you can probably have guessed by my softclaim to Toony of "Millers shouldn't claim", my alignment inspect is also Pirate.

Funny thing about those two: I can't see anything that says Pirate is mafia.  For all I know, Pirate inspects as teal, brown, blue. In other words, my assumption was that it is a third-party inspection, not a mafia inspection.

Jack: Please do not recruit Max or Toony. I would prefer not to explain why I am making this request until day 2, but will if it is insisted upon.

Max said it would be a bad idea to recruit him, and that is good enough for me.
I was never going to recruit Toony. He's too tricky as scum to risk it, and he's talented enough as town to not need it. He also got way too many chats in one of the Kill Webadict Nows, so there is a bit of compassion in that as well.

Also: See my above post as my "opening salvo".

Jack muses how he alignment inspects as Pirate but doesn't see anywhere that he's mafia. Hold on to that thought.

Later, when FoU confirns things in the thread:

FallacyofUrist I wish to ask you here:  Pirates, if pirates exist or come to exist, would they be anti-town?

In the opening post, I state that no alignments outside of the listed ones may exist. Pirates are not explicitly listed as an alignment. However...

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The other scumteam may take up any villainous-sounding factional name. They share the same rules and win condition as the Mafia - and yes, they will need to fight the Mafia in order to achieve their win condition, and vice versa, because it turns out this town isn't big enough for two groups of murderers.

The only way for Pirate to be an alignment would be for it to be a scumteam alignment.

Fuck you Fallacy. Yes, I believe I am allowed to say that, since you've fucked me pretty hard.

Who says this if they were town?

This is my interpretation:

On page 17 (default) when Jack isn't aware he's a MAFIA Pirate he talks very casually and normal. On pages 19 and 20 he realizes he's actually mafia and this is why he flips out and specifically gets mad at FoU for fucking him over. This is far too strong a reaction for a player who is simply a miller. If Jack was a miller like me his attitude would not have been this sour.

---

I think NQT is a decent Mafia pick, not my first pick but I wish they would help more.

[webadict]

@Toony:  I'll be honest about your earlier statement:  If EuchreJack flips Town, I don't want your life.  I don't want an apology.  I want your obedience.  Unquestioning, undying loyalty.  I get two votes to use instead of my one.  And in return, I offer mine to you.  Should EuchreJack flip some form of anti-Town, whether it be Pirate, Mafia, or even SK, I follow your lead.  Survivor or Hunter is a draw.  I'm basically already doing that, so what am I losing?

You have pushed a single case for the duration of the Day, and personally, I see you as a renegade vigilante, allowed to do as he wills provided the results come in.  I give this as a shortening of the chain I have afforded you.  I can't have you wasting time on single cases to be wrong, especially ones this big, so I put forth this ultimatum.

I have no power to do this and cannot force any arbitration upon the outcome, nor do I have any belief that I will survive Tomorrow given my claims, but that is what I want.

notquitethere.  sofanthiel.  The Canadian kitten.  Egan_BW.

Those are my preferred candidates.  I'm not sure who else is up for debate besides EuchreJack that isn't included in those, but start consolidating, folks.

[Jim Groovester]

Would not mind sofanthiel, but I think EuchreJack is a stronger case.

Mildly okay with a the Canadian kitten lynch, but not really hot on anybody else. I'll admit I haven't tracked cases on those players very closely.

webadict, this is important. Push for EJ's chat invitees publicly. I will keep saying this until you do.

[Imp]

sofanthiel:

Why would a person wish to be removed from the game due to in-game circumstances?  It definitely wasn't boredom here.

EuchreJack:

[EuchreJack] flips out and specifically gets mad at FoU for fucking him over. This is far too strong a reaction for a player who is simply a miller. If Jack was a miller like me his attitude would not have been this sour.

because Fallacy said:

I see you. That's right, I see you, in particular.

in my dreamworld, I'd start with sixteen players (and we started with 18, we're in the mod's dreamworld)

so don't worry about missing out.

Please also send me a role name and/or role theme, which I will use to construct your in-game role. These can be anything within the rules of the forum, though I reserve the right to reject submissions I believe I can't work with. I will avoid doing this if at all possible, though.

And what else is said?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, Webadict said, "I can take your role away, this is busted, this is bad, so I require a vote, but gotta talk about this"

I am currently wielding a power that could kill fun.

It is imperative that those under its gaze know the destruction it might wrought.

We're in the mod's dreamworld.  18 players... so much is possible.  Every single one of us should have gotten something we absolutely love, and asked for.  We were promised that from before the start.

Look at TricMagic's roleflip.  Think he wanted most of that?  I do.

Look at your own role.  I can only look at mine.  I asked for this.  I got it, big time.  Wow did I get what I asked for.

Who didn't?

One of us obviously didn't.  Big time didn't.

First post, Oh, I'd gladly die.  Also, who wants to be a pirate?  Why gladly die though, in this game of dreams, where everyone should have what they wanted - or... glance to TricMagic be able to get it if things work out that way.

When I die, I leave behind a hat that is stronger than my ability. While it could help Mafia, a Town player would get more use out of it.  What's he saying there.  My life has no meaning.  My death has more meaning than my life.  My ability(s) suck.

To Webadict directly, about that role scrub:  As for using it on me: I might be mildly annoyed to lose my ability, but frankly it's actually more work than I signed up for, so if you think I look scummy, feel free to scrub my profile. Vanilla Town would be easier, and I doubt anyone would want to waste time lynching or killing a powerless player.

Wait a moment.  Let's put this together.  I think he's saying he doesn't like what he got and he wouldn't mind being powerless, vanilla whatever he is.  He also claims that would make him town, to be stripped.

Some of us are calling TricMagic Serial Killer.  But if he were scrubed, he would be vanilla town.

and that "it's actually more work than I signed up for".  First direct indication he makes, "I didn't ask for this".  Not the only one.

But then look next:

Right, back to work.

@Toony: I don't believe millers should claim. If they don't look scummy, they won't be suspected. It's a distraction in a game with this many players. Why are you trying to muddy up the waters with this many players? 

This poor player has a job to do that he didn't want.  It's not what he asked for.  And it's hard and he thinks Toony is making it harder by the miller claim.  At this point, he doesn't know what the miller claim is, because Toony didn't say what.

But the deeper issue - This is a game of FallacyofUrist's dreams.  We all should have a role that we asked for and really like.  EuchreJack does not.  Is saying so from opening of play.

Why, in a game of FallacyofUrist's dreams, would any player not have a role they really liked?  I can think of only one reason.  It's possible, in game, to fix that.  What if someone submitted a fixer role?  They'd need problems to fix.  That means, unfortunately, someone has to have problems, whoops.  This is a high power game.  That's been said:

This is a high-power BYOR, but it's not a bastard mod.

I literally had Meph, the Mafia board moderator, review the setup.

Every player should have a great role, to their personal request.  But what if some idiot(s) submitted a role that made it make sense for others to maybe only get that if they got help?  And/or the balance of the whole game worked out better that way?

Fuck you Fallacy. Yes, I believe I am allowed to say that, since you've fucked me pretty hard.

In a game of personal invitations, with 18 players, what could make a player say that to the mod?  Not getting what they wanted, getting something far off instead.

EuchreJack was given the town role Pirate King

Are you just making up shit to show how much superiority you have over me?

Again, didn't get what was wanted, didn't get much.

Oh, and here it is.  Mechanically, I give Fallacy a list of three players, and they get the invite along with inspection as Pirate. No alignment change occurs. Just like me, they only inspect as pirate.  It's an invitation, supposedly.  Not an induction.  It can be refused.  It does need consent.  Least, I read the claim this way.

As you point out, I don't know who is town, and the chat itself will not reveal alignment.
However, being able to have a private conversation among myself and 3 players means we will learn a lot more about each other. Imagine a large group having a conference, then I inviting off 3 people for a private conversation. We'll all get to know each other far better than in the large group.
It's also a Discord chat, so it's a "faster" medium.

I have requested that Fallacy mod kill me. I just can't continue with this farce. You can then all see what really happened, and move on with the game. And I won't have to deal with this shit anymore.

Up to this point, EuchreJack thinks he has nothing worth having.  And not what he asked for.
He's missing something.  Because someone else has it.

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

... EuchreJack.

So, among my various oddnesses, as of right now I can choose to help empower specific others, should I choose to, if and only if I am in a private chat with those specific others, and based on a few other things also not fully under my control.  I cannot promise 'the moon' or any other specific.  I can promise 'probably something, and once I know what it is, it probably is under my control'.

Being in this private chat doesn't actually make me clearly stronger.  I don't actually get a personal benefit from being in said chat except the ability to potentially help and/or empower others, based on other things that may regularly change.

I don't have to talk much in it, and I'd agree to follow requested post restrictions, like 'bare minimum words' or whatever if you and the rest chose.

But there's some cool mechanics involved, if that happens.  I also really like helping others, though I won't knowingly help anyone but town... or what I think is towards town ends.

So I offer this for your consideration, after getting enough info to think, 'okay, I'll reveal this too'.

...Fine, you're in.

This whole thing makes the most sense to me if I have to find him and he has to find me, and we're town, we have to do it in the thread.  Both of us set up to mess up, and make sure we have a chance to find each other.

I believe that's is why EuchreJack is so despondent with their role, so upset.  In this game of dreams their dream appears, from the start to not have been given.  And there's no reason for that (it's hidden in others' roles).  In this 18 player game, we all should have a role very close to what we asked for, or a way to get that.

Right?

[webadict]

webadict, this is important. Push for EJ's chat invitees publicly. I will keep saying this until you do.

I don't really see why or how it's important.  If EuchreJack is scum, he will lie.  If EuchreJack is Town, there isn't a reason to give that information away to scum.  And if EuchreJack is executed, no one gets added.  This is a silly point to get caught up on.

[Imp]

notquitethere.  sofanthiel.  The Canadian kitten.  Egan_BW.

Those are my preferred candidates.  I'm not sure who else is up for debate besides EuchreJack that isn't included in those, but start consolidating, folks.

My recent reads here, add to it Secretdorf as suspected Serial killer.

Why isn't Knightwing one of your preferred?
And why write off Secretdorf for D1 lynch?

My preferred lynch candidates now are any of, though roughly in this preference order:

Secretdorf, Knightwing, CrystalizedMire, sofanthiel, The Canadian kitten, Egan_BW, notquitethere

webadict, this is important. Push for EJ's chat invitees publicly. I will keep saying this until you do.

I don't really see why or how it's important.  If EuchreJack is scum, he will lie.  If EuchreJack is Town, there isn't a reason to give that information away to scum.  And if EuchreJack is executed, no one gets added.  This is a silly point to get caught up on.

It matters because if it is public knowledge that person A, B, C will be invited then we know what to think when person A, B, and/or C says "I never got an invite".  Or if person D implies they did.

As town expecting an invite and not sure if I walk into a trap or not, I also agree with Jim that everyone should know who expects invites.  As town right now, I mean for converted me to be detectable should conversion happen.  I can't mean that after conversion, and it's trash if I'm not town now.  But town me means for converted me to die, if I get converted.  If I am ever converted, I'll play to that new wincon with whatever mess I made for myself, and if I fail, town wins.  Right now, I want town to win.

I expect Max, Jim, and Imp to be receiving invites based on this, but I note that EuchreJack stated that may not be happening as previously said, wants to keep one invite private.  That almost scares me enough not to touch an invite if I get one.  I feel MUCH SAFER WITH THIS if it is public and as confirmable as possible.  I am serious, until I am converted I work toward 'me converted leads to me dead in a town-safer fashion' since I have town-unsafer ways to die.  I also think this is probably not conversion, thus I am participating.  It also looks 'made for me' in a 'maybe but maybe not trap' way.

Max has stated consequences if not invited and I believe Jim did too.  Imp has not stated any consequences, but agrees 1000% that this should be, as it already has been, very, very, very public and verifiable in multiple ways.

Also I had fears that Webadict was already converted, right after saying:

Also also, please ask Fallacy how mechanically your team chat works, because depending on how it works, you could possibly use it on me.

I think maybe Webadict had a uniqueness that let him be insta-given that invite, and could have been insta-converted.

So, Webadict, when I see that it is truly impossible that Webadict could have already been converted, this will really help me feel better about accepting any invitation I may be offered, as well as convincing me that of course Webadict wasn't converted.  I think I won't open it until I hear from the other players who were supposed to get one, confirming they got one, and I'll decide what else to do based on what I hear.

To me, EuchreJack is fully free to make any decisions that person chooses.  I'm not here to force anything, unless I think I must and can.  Currently those conditions are not met.

There's no way I ask for a votecount ... or anything much of anything ... but especially not a votecount with a I-think-there's-a-serial-killer-offering-them.

Imp thinks the current Vote Count is:
------------------------
EuchreJack          --6-- BlackHeartKabal*, ToonyMan*, Egan_BW*, notquitethere*, Jim Groovester*, Secretdorf*,
-> sofanthiel       --3-- Maximum Spin*, EuchreJack*, The Canadian kitten*,
notquitethere       --3-- Elephant Parade*, webadict*, Imp*,
Imp                 --1-- Crystalizedmire*,
The Canadian kitten --1-- Lenglon*,
Egan_BW             --0--
BlackHeartKabal     --0--
Crystalizedmire     --0--
Elephant Parade     --0--
hector13            --0--
Jim Groovester      --0--
Knightwing64        --0--
Lenglon             --0--
Maximum Spin        --0--
Secretdorf          --0--
ToonyMan            --0--
webadict            --0--
No One              --0--

Not Voting          --3-- Knightwing64, sofanthiel*, hector13*,

9 to hammer

[EuchreJack]

...am I the only one that works for a living? 

As for invites, they include Imp and Jim. Hiding the third.

Gotta get back to work.

[Crystalizedmire]

notquitethere.  sofanthiel.  The Canadian kitten.  Egan_BW.

Those are my preferred candidates.  I'm not sure who else is up for debate besides EuchreJack that isn't included in those, but start consolidating, folks.

My recent reads here, add to it Secretdorf as suspected Serial killer.

Why isn't Knightwing one of your preferred?
And why write off Secretdorf for D1 lynch?

My preferred lynch candidates now are any of, though roughly in this preference order:

Secretdorf, Knightwing, CrystalizedMire, sofanthiel, The Canadian kitten, Egan_BW, notquitethere

Well, that was certainly quick. Why did you change votes? Assuming that you're voting for the person you think is the most suspicious, why did you voted NQT when they are someone you are just uneasy about? I'm pretty certain you are bandwagoning early on because you are the third vote.

[notquitethere]

Pfp

I've had a pretty full on few days RL, but things are beginning to open up. Obviously I'd normally have been a bit more engaged in the game. I've just been out the house a lot. But I'm back in the thread now.

Elephant Parade, I was voting EJ because a spiralling scum player makes more sense to me than a spiralling town in that same situation. Do you disagree? Imp has given an interesting reason to give EJ the benefit of the doubt... but could also just be because Imp is now a pirate.

Web, to be fair, I might be voting me in your shoes. Scum often lay lower post count.

Imp, why are you sheeping Web specifically?

More to come. What's up with Knightwing?

[Elephant Parade]

Elephant Parade, I was voting EJ because a spiralling scum player makes more sense to me than a spiralling town in that same situation. Do you disagree? Imp has given an interesting reason to give EJ the benefit of the doubt... but could also just be because Imp is now a pirate.

I didn't ask why you voted a person you didn't ask any questions, I asked why you didn't ask any questions of the person you were voting.