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[Secretdorf]

Secretdorf:

I will also say this: if at some point you need a votecount (and you are not EuchreJack), feel free to ask me, if I see the request before mamobo or fallacy do, I'll do it, you know, out of goodwill.

Being clear I am not asking for what you offer, or asking for anything.  But why did you even say what I quote?  It seems unconnected to what you quote, and the rest of the conversation around your post.  Also, why exclude the offer to EuchreJack?

Complying with a player's request for a votecount grants me a benefit which will become apparent once I actually do that. As for this being unconnected to the post I had quoted, yes it is: you somehow deleted my actual response to the quote. I said I would not do this service for Jack because he was reacting to everyone's posts in a funny way, and I figured he would ask me for a votecount if I offered, even though Mamobo had done one just a few posts ago.

And Secretdorf makes a potential misstep that shows he's Third Party, but probably a benevolent one.

I do not see how that goes but such a conclusion is not surprising to me for the lack of effort I have put in beyond catching up and answering any direct questions. I hope to change that before D1 ends.

I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,  and , so I'm going to note her as townlean.

Re: Case on Egan
I thought there was something I was missing, and Webadict and Maximum_spin were not. Apparently that is not how it is. So I am going to Unvote for now because I do not find the reason convincing in the least. I also feel like some people are just punishing Egan for playing RTD in the wrong board. Moreover, I can empathize with Egan's stated reasoning for saying what they did: it makes sense enough to me that I would not consider eliminating them for it.

I was thinking that the other 'reason' behind Webadict's case on Egan was that... he was just inviting people to join the pirates. I thought whoever supported Webadict and Jack were being offered invites to Pirate team, and I was intrigued by this possibility: Cult-ish win is cooler than town win, I thought. But now seeing the number of people on the wagon, it is not possible as Jack admittedly can invite only three people. So now I am going to support Toonyman's argument that Jack be eliminated D1 because they possibly pose a lot of threat to town otherwise. I have read some defenses of Jack and they seem to me feeble in the face of the arguments advocating elimination of Jack.

I have to read the last few posts yet, notably NQT's summary.

Spoiler: Hint for the mafia team (click to show/hide)

If you look close enough, you will see that NQT is a pirate.

[TricMagic]

Pirate Cult would sorta fit if it weren't for Egan insisting Pirates are red. Lot of trying to discredit web, move lynch to Jack. But at the end of the day, would be mostly useful if Jack got shot and Egan exited. Cause I do not want to play along with the RTD when it encompasses everything and veils their actual alignment.

Ninjadorfed

[Elephant Parade]

God damn that's a lot of posts

[Elephant Parade]

I can eat EJ's piratizer risk-free tonight and confirm that it does what he says it does, though that isn't a perfect solution given that it's multi-target

[Elephant Parade]

Still catching up

Imp is definitely town. They have put the most amount of effort into this game, and their posts look extremely independent. They're at least not mafia (or pirate).

Eh? Imp also put the most effort into the just-ended Armed Forces III, where they were scum. Independence is harder to gauge, but I'm suspicious of them—and between this defense and your combined attack on EJ, I'm strongly considering the two of you as a scumteam. If EJ dies and flips town, you're on the chopping block.

[Elephant Parade]

Also, since this game is Miller central, I'd like to float the unlikely-but-plausible possibility that Pirate is a fake alignment that only exists as an inspect result, not an actual faction. I think this is less likely than piratecult!EJ, pirates!TM/Imp, or pirate!someonewhohasntcomeupyet, but it's worth considering

[Secretdorf]

I would also have liked to note that Fallacy's example PMs clear me as they do not contain the wincon bit, but I guess they are not the real deal. Still, I asked about the wincon only because I thought there would be a stated wincon, and I wanted to here from Jack if he actually was anti-town or was just imagining it. Now I'm more inclined to believe it's the former.

[Imp]

Cults are purple and have a potentially endless induction power, if that isn't shut off.  Nothing I have seen or heard makes me think this is true of EuchreJack/pirates.

I am pretty sure based on what was said, and what probably makes sense for the balance of the game, killing EuchreJack doesn't stop the induction of up to 3 pirates.  I did and do wonder if Webadict had something unique about him that makes him easier to recruit faster than others; Webadict's claimed a really wide range of stuff this game, which I'd find more suspicious except I too have a lot of knowledge and stuff I can claim, and some of it got claimed for me and some of it was worded as a trap for me, and some of it as a trap for others.  But I think as stands, no matter what we do with EuchreJack (unless we can scrub him) we face 3 and only 3 pirates.

I agree this doesn't sound cult, plus cult is purple:

The Cult

And Pirates are distinctly red and I don't have any purple warning but much of what I was answered differentiates when scum teams may appear and carefully doesn't state if all the scum teams exist at start of play.  Another reason why I lean that EuchreJack could be

(Common) The Mafia-Ally simply wins when the Mafia players do, without actively being on their team (and thus gaining none of their special privileges).

But that is still really weird because EuchreJack explicitly discusses sharing the Pirate chat with them -

Oh.  Maybe he can because not role, but an ability.  That would mean it's not a special privilege, right?

From what EuchreJack said, I do believe he was very likely ignorant-innocent when he made the claims he did.  If not, I still think he's like a kingmaker (a pirate maker, the foul pirates 3) and himself a pirate-ally who did not realize Pirates were anti-town, else he would have done much very differently.

I don't know what he was ignorant of.  I do know that when I outed myself, in my first post, to the scum team(s) existing at start of play, I was clueless.  I totally believe EuchreJack's info could have been as confusing to him as mine was to me.

Maybe we need to kill EuchreJack to win, but omg let's not assume all the pirates die with him.  Early on he said these things about his death:

Spoiler: Me pulling out Jack's claims and tracking the rage spiral/possible induction of Webadict ending it, from only what Jack posts (click to show/hide)

Early claims, I think a lot wasn't understood here:

When I die, I leave behind a hat that is stronger than my ability. While it could help Mafia, a Town player would get more use out of it.

I might be mildly annoyed to lose my ability, but frankly it's actually more work than I signed up for, so if you think I look scummy, feel free to scrub my profile. Vanilla Town would be easier

Pirates don't leave behind straw hats.

Also: Toony is barred from being a pirate. As for why, see Mostly Vanilla Mafia 3, Round 5

...somebody's angling for recruitment into the Pirates.

I should point out, I can recruit 3 pirates at end of Day 1, and no more.

Posts show some new attitudes and concerns starting here, growing more defensive and assertive:

Since I'll be sharing a chat with three players at End of Day 1, I'll going to save that info for my new recruits.
There is such a thing as Too Much information.
(I also didn't clearly understand my role when I originally posted, so I apologize for any inconsistencies regarding the hat.)

It changes your alignment inspection to Pirate.
As you can probably have guessed by my softclaim to Toony of "Millers shouldn't claim", my alignment inspect is also Pirate.

Funny thing about those two: I can't see anything that says Pirate is mafia.  For all I know, Pirate inspects as teal, brown, blue. In other words, my assumption was that it is a third-party inspection, not a mafia inspection.

Seems more informed and defensive here, I think this is where 'damage recovery and plan for future' starts:

I should also add that my crewmates only inspect as Pirate while I live. After my death, their inspection as Pirate ends.
So it provides cover to mafia from being inspected as mafia as well as hindering a townie from being inspected as town.

I should also add that my crewmates only inspect as Pirate while I live. After my death, their inspection as Pirate ends.
So it provides cover to mafia from being inspected as mafia as well as hindering a townie from being inspected as town.

They get added to piratechat and they inspect as pirate. From what I can tell, the alignment inspection is a result of joining the pirate chat.
I am unsure if anything prevents them from being invited to the chat.

He seemed start of furious here.  I think this is true, bolding and size change mine.  I suspect he thought anyone Pirate-anything would be his friend, and all would welcome pirates:

That being said, the latest quote of your post shows that I misread your response.Egan confirming Pirates are Red didn't help things.
Switching to Imp.

So yeah, I'm definitely a Miller. And you are all seeing why claiming Miller is stupid.  That said, if I'm going to recruit 3 players with it, they probably have a right to know.

I'm in no way a town-ally. I am strictly town that inspects as, what we have now determined, a mafia faction. I was also trying to, you know, actually investigate Toonyman. Which was incredibly stupid of me, since he's the sort to turn that against you regardless of your alignment. F^@& ToonyMan.

There is another bonus to being on the Pirate Crew, but I'd rather not say, since I think I might not get voted out. Although, the three players will know it. Hm...

The next several posts show some focus of fury towards Toony, the other one saying they would inspect as miller, and express concepts of betrayal.  Then launches into a generalized rant towards most but not all players. Notably quotes me and FallacyofUrist, but swears at Fallacy, not me, and states couldn't 'bare' to insult Egan_BW

Around that time, rage appears fading, jaded advice and start of camaraderie offered in the still-rapid-fire posts.......>

Cover for this one?

At this point, I'm just acknowledging that webadict exists. Literally everything else he says is a lie.

Advice from Webadict to distance, showing calm, and then distance from Webadict, then appear to come round?

Except aggression picks back up, so probably not.  NQT directly insulted, Egan_BW's challenge accepted, both insult and defense of lacking understanding of information not in DM.

Then, nearly full recovery.  And back to specifics:

Claim:
EuchreJack was given the town role Pirate King. It causes me to inspect as Pirate.  I was NOT and I want to emphasis this, NOT told that Pirate was a scum faction. I assumed it was, you know, third party. Then our overworked GM kindly informed everyone publicly that Pirate could only possibly be a scum faction. So I claimed miller without knowing that I was claiming miller.
The role Pirate King gives me access to the Pirate chat.  I can recruit 3 other people to join Pirate chat. They will also inspect as Pirate.

Back to swearing, back to calmer, then to SecretDorf,

1) If you are so sure that I am mafia, why are you not voting me?
2) My PM contained no wincom for any alignment. It did say "Town". For all I know, the pirate scum faction could have some wincon other than the standard mafia faction.

Then alignment with Webadict:

@Webadict: I'll join you in voting people for a bit. Egan_BW

And after that mostly quiet, calm, time-spaced play.

Elephant Parade:

I can eat EJ's piratizer risk-free tonight and confirm that it does what he says it does, though that isn't a perfect solution given that it's multi-target

I really suspect that EuchreJack's conversion goes off during D1/end of D1, if what EuchreJack said was true at all.  Way too late to stop it, and it might be used up/gone by then, no way to prove?

TricMagic:

Pirate Cult would sorta fit if it weren't for Egan insisting Pirates are red.

For whatever it is/isn't worth, Imp and Toonyman also claim Pirates are red details in their role PMs.

I cannot rule out cults.  I do think 1+ Serial Killers are likely, and I can't rule out a possible third scum team or cult, based on my DMs.  Others say they have info on conversions, others say they have info cults are impossible.

Webadict. He's a slippery character and it'd be good to resolve the slot sooner rather than later. Flipping Wuba clarifies his puzzling defence of EJ and should tell us more about piracy.

I note Webadict kindly didn't attempt to be mean to me, just withdrew from direct interaction with me, and maybe everyone for a time.

Checking...

There are two people in this game who would immediately shoot me with no hesitation, and Jim is one of them.  The other is TricMagic.  I cannot take the chance to vote Jim before I have unleashed my ramblings, especially since Jim has the potential to give us two executions Today.

Okay, NQT isn't pre-listed as a 'kill Webadict when convenient' player.  Not sure what else to think.  I am scared, but don't know.  There's some stuff about my rolePM that does make me think I can choose and need to be careful about what I agree to.  And even more stuff that makes me wanna get into a private chat if I can.  I'll only do that if I'm super-sure it's somehow a town one.  EuchreJack's claims were, as I said here, really tempting to me.  Almost worded right to sound 'town'.  If he had known to never use the word Pirate until the trap closed...

But as Web said

@Imp:  You have it backwards.  You also have a list of three people who didn't know what Pirate was as an alignment.

the three players that were willing to say yes even if it was partial or retracted after (we don't know if consent matters, I suspect it might but am not sure)

Webadict:  Straight out "I do..." but then withdrawn.  Later the iffy "you could possibly use it on me"
Maximum Spin: Iffy "I'd say you could recruit me"
Elephant Parade: straight out "Me"

[Maximum Spin]

A cult with limited recruitment is still conventionally considered a cult. As Fallacy said that a secondary scum team would share the same rules as the mafia, I do not believe they have recruitment.

Fallacy: Is it possible for a non-cult scumteam to have the ability to recruit?

Anyway, I specifically told EuchreJack not to recruit me. You can't just cut off the first half and ignore the rest, that's incredibly shady.

[notquitethere]

I appreciate Max's hard line here. But I think we could see something which is not quite a cult. The three usual elements to a cult are: anti-town alignment, conversion, shared chat. Hector could have some but not all these elements. Here are some possibilities:
- Members of the pirate crew don't change their alignment, but they join a chat and get upgrades so long as the captain stays alive, so they have an incentive to target the other mafia team first.
- The same as above, but the converted die if the captain dies. Even stronger incentives!
- It's as EJ claims and piracy is a mechanic that turns people into millers.
- Pirates gain secondary alternatie wincons (unlikely, but not impossible in a BYOR)

Either way, swinging in with a sideways strategy seems the best approach. Resolving EJ at this stage tells us something about the player we know the most about.


Secretdorf, I'm not mafia so I refuse to acknowledge what may or may not be written in your hint

Imp, good stuff. Yes, I'm reasonably convinced now that EJ can't be a classic cult leader (also a classic cult leader would never announce themselves in thread).

[Elephant Parade]

Plot points

- Jim's Role: players position themselves whether or not they're afraid to be daykilled by Jim
- Max hints at secret power not to die. As usual he's a miller which I doubt. I always find this guy shady though.
- Webadict claims the power to wipe someone out of continuity (we ought be skeptical, he's a well known fabricationist regardless of alignment)
- EuchreJack can get players to join his pirate crew. He can leave a hat when he dies.
- Toony is a pirate-miller. Miller claiming is very fashionable in contemporary Bay12 meta, but so is giving people miller roles, and the specificity of the pirate role makes it more believable. Either Toony is an actual pirate or he looks like one as he claims.
- Hector (aristocrat), Sofanthiel (computer), Egan (RTD) or Imp (historical allegories, "watching the watchers") may have posting restrictions. If Tric wasn't Tric, he could have one. I think he just chooses to write like that.
- Tric almost certainly submitted another dragon role
- Imp claims to help scum factions on death... which is an odd thing for town to claim. Ill thought out? Scum-aligned? Hoping for a doc? A trap? Regardless of 'correct play', it feels town to me.
- Canadian Kitten is a self-evolver. (I think this unnecessary level of candidness is town-indicative.)
- Egan is running an RTD. I'll play along:
Hero
- Egan says that Pirates are second scum team, and that there are hunter third parties.
- Fallacy over-clarifies that Pirates would be scum in the thread. EJ rows back and claims to be pirate-miller after all and then starts spiralling, insulting everyone in what has come to be known as the Jackening.
- Web tries to steer the game away from an EJ lynch. Imp later notices this and suggests Web might already be on the pirate crew. Very believable.
- Almost half the player-base are voting Egan for some reason I somehow managed to miss. Is it just because they don't like RTDs??

What did I miss?


EuchreJack is undoubtedly the "correct" option today. I think the inevitable EOD mass-panic-voting could well resolve on EJ. The only thing that speaks against him accidentally outing himself as some kind of cult leader is that we have meta reasons to doubt Fallacy would put in a cult. But in an 18 player game, a limited conversion power isn't busted, I could see it happening. The spiralling did seem believable as "oh shit I have just lost the game before it already starte and now I'm throwing a tantrum".

But the funnier thing would be to vote out the most likely conversion target, Webadict. He's a slippery character and it'd be good to resolve the slot sooner rather than later. Flipping Wuba clarifies his puzzling defence of EJ and should tell us more about piracy.

This recap is the kind of helpful-but-alignment-nonindicative content scum can easily produce. Some content, lots of filler. Also frames some self-claims as possibilities (TricMagic "almost certainly submitted another dragon role" -- he said he did; various people "may have posting restrictions" -- Hector and Imp outright claimed them); could be noncommitiveness or an attempt to launder recap into analysis, could just be an innocent phrasing quirk. +5 SP (sus points)

I really suspect that EuchreJack's conversion goes off during D1/end of D1, if what EuchreJack said was true at all.  Way too late to stop it, and it might be used up/gone by then, no way to prove?

Ah, I shouldn't have assumed it was a night action. To clarify, I'd be safe even if he targeted me during the day.

I really doubt consent is necessary for piratization. That would be highly unusual, an extremely cruel restriction, and a weird flavor fit. Also, I consented and nothing happened to me. You continue to go off in directions that make no sense to me and I'm going to go ahead and vote you for it: Imp.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm kind of at the point of thinking that "Pirates" have never been a team and the three people talking about seeing "Pirates" in red are just the mafia team inventing a second scumteam for us to hunt.

[Maximum Spin]

With that in mind and EP's post, you know what, let's find out. Imp.

[FallacyofUrist]

Fallacy: Is it possible for a non-cult scumteam to have the ability to recruit?

Yes. However, such recruitment would not be a Factional ability.

[Crystalizedmire]

Unvote
I'm doubting Webadict's judgement because the only strong reason I voted for Egan was because of the rtd stuff. The other reason was that Egan knows the role colours but even then they're less suspicious than Imp because at least they never admitted to knowing what was sent to the scum teams:

I started game with an auto and innate ability that is named something like, 'Villians achieve the victory'  And everyone currently on a scum team at the start of play got quoted that entire ability, with the real words, and got encouraged to go find and kill the person who has that ability for some, um, 'advantages' for the killer (it's in the ability wording).  It's worded really nice, it fully sounds like it is good for the killer.

They didn't, that I can understand, get told the rest of my DM, like what my alignment is, or the other things that make it clear that the ability that any and all existing scum teams got told about is mostly a ruse.  It's true, of course, but it doesn't reveal the rest of it.  So I'm just going to remind that 'Villians achieve the victory' does not say that the villian(s) that killed me and got that benefit are the same villians that would be then conquering, there's quite a few ways to read that and ways to turn that apparent benefit into a curse.