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[notquitethere]

Max, that would be very funny. How do you square Imp trying to say an Imp death would help scum? Proactive defence for a scum player? I think it's more bold and self-exposing than scum normally are, but obviously it's not impossible.

Elephant Parade, I had 150 posts to read back, so I definitely did some skimming, so thanks for updating me about some of the claims. None of what I wrote was "filler", it's all genuinely me trying to work out what's going on in the game and posting what I found.

[TricMagic]

At this point, fairly sure Max isn't town.

[Maximum Spin]

Max, that would be very funny. How do you square Imp trying to say an Imp death would help scum? Proactive defence for a scum player? I think it's more bold and self-exposing than scum normally are, but obviously it's not impossible.

Well, that didn't strictly happen. It's always been extremely ambiguous whether an Imp death is supposed to help or hurt scum and exactly who it'll help or hurt. It seems extremely within the bounds of a gambit to me, but you know I'm more prone to wild things like that myself so others may find it harder to swallow.

[Elephant Parade]

Max, that would be very funny. How do you square Imp trying to say an Imp death would help scum? Proactive defence for a scum player? I think it's more bold and self-exposing than scum normally are, but obviously it's not impossible.

Elephant Parade, I had 150 posts to read back, so I definitely did some skimming, so thanks for updating me about some of the claims. None of what I wrote was "filler", it's all genuinely me trying to work out what's going on in the game and posting what I found.

When I call recap filler, I mean that it's text that you can't effectively use to analyze the person who wrote it. It does take effort to produce, and it is potentially helpful, but it doesn't tell you very much about the writer. Your post uses some of it as a jumping-off point for analysis but not all. That said, I can see the value of a recap in a game with this much going on.

[Crystalizedmire]

Adding on to my previous post:
If Imp was lying she wouldn't be town because she has no good reason to lie about it therefore she is scum
If Imp was telling the truth she could be either town or scum

It is also really suspicious that she later thought it wasn't a coincidence that Maximum Spin knew about the "Badguys" thing which sounds to me as scum trying to push for maximum spin's miselimination

[Imp]

If consent matters, watch Max and Elephant Parade for probable pirate converts because they along with Webadict said yes.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

Me, but depending on what that entails, you might regret inducting me into your crew.

Wasn't directed to EuchreJack, but said very soon after EuchreJack again offered to recruit and nobody else was offering:

I'd say you could recruit me, but it would be a bad idea.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

I do... Ah, but I cannot!

I don't know if that matters.

My death by lynch just means 'my dreams die' it doesn't empower any town enemies.  It does waste a lynch, as I am town and flip town, but it also prevents chance of empowering town enemies.

Here's where you can see my first claims of what happens when I die, based on how: 

TricMagic

Yet perhaps it serves, as so many make claims even Day 1... to state a riddle that is true of me right now:

I am town and inspect as town.  But with my death, some dreams will end.  I may seem a tempting fruit for those not town, but you should beware, for in my dreams, my killer's ship is beset by storms - I have some goods and more each day, but taken from my corpse, they become accursed and help your enemies more than you.

Each day I live, new wonders may grow, and maybe help for those with various problems bestowed.  I mean to help only town - I probably can't manage that, but I mean to try.  While I live, I probably can't avoid helping anyone, possibly everyone else alive at various times.  I could turn this role selfish, but I'm not interested.  I'd rather play it to help.  I also don't actually have direct control of what wonders come, I just get to try and call them.

My death can't directly hurt town, other than from a townie dead.  If I die to town, or just die, that's fine, my dreams only end.  No harm to town, or benefit to town's enemies, if I am lynched, town-action killed, or just generally die.  If I am killed by certain or most others - oh, some of you were told reason to kill me.  But what you were not told, and what I mean to reveal:

When I die, it's likely everyone will wish I had died later, unless I'm the last kill needed for that side that needs me dead.
If I die by action of Pirate, Mafia, or SK - you benefit your enemies more than you benefit yourself.  I predict you and your team (if you have a team) will wish someone else had killed me, and killed me later in the game at that.

I'm also requesting to be considered for whatever survival protection others see fit to give.  I'm darn useful alive, but guiding me how to help likely helps more than not.  I could also just dream of self-protection, yawn.  I'd rather be a directly active part of a team win and try to see this game be even more fun for even more of us.

FallacyofUrist - Does a Pirate-hunter leave play when the last Pirate dies?  Does the survival of any Pirate-miller that are actually town affect the wincon of a Pirate-hunter, should one exist?

[hector13]

Eurgh, back to page 17 we go.

Ah fuckin' ell, maybe a useful tidbit from Esteemed Imp in this post, emphasis mine:

Well, I should have waited for that clarification.  I thought I worked around it, I was absolutely blindsided.  I thought roles/abilties/all that are private.  Whoops, no.  Confirmation revealed that any then-existing scum got told some of my PM, word for word.  Since I didn't know that before I made that first post, I removed a lot of choices from myself.  Because I know what scum were told and it basically draws a treasure map just doesn't say who to kill, but sure does say kill that person if you can.

The implication being that scum may be created after the game started.

I shall post this and continue reading.

PPE: or maybe in a second.

Esteemed Maximum Spin

I'm kind of at the point of thinking that "Pirates" have never been a team and the three people talking about seeing "Pirates" in red are just the mafia team inventing a second scumteam for us to hunt.

You're a smart cookie, you know that if the Pirates don't exist the best person to flip would be Esteemed EuchreJack, because then we can move on and go after the people making it up should it turn out he isn't a second mafia faction leader. It's a big enough game to absorb that loss, and on the flip-side, maybe too big a game to be making a gambit as you've laid out on D1, particularly when it can be revealed as such so easily.

Do you think Esteemed EuchreJack would consider you a good candidate for a Pirate-convert, should he possess such an ability?

[notquitethere]

This isn't ambiguous unless you just can't parse the indirect phrasing.

When I die, it's likely everyone will wish I had died later, unless I'm the last kill needed for that side that needs me dead.
If I die by action of Pirate, Mafia, or SK - you benefit your enemies more than you benefit yourself.  I predict you and your team (if you have a team) will wish someone else had killed me, and killed me later in the game at that.

The claim is that if Imp is killed by an anti-town faction, it'd help that anti-town faction. Is Max trying to obfuscate here?

It's always been extremely ambiguous whether an Imp death is supposed to help or hurt scum and exactly who it'll help or hurt.

[Maximum Spin]

You're a smart cookie, you know that if the Pirates don't exist the best person to flip would be Esteemed EuchreJack, because then we can move on and go after the people making it up should it turn out he isn't a second mafia faction leader. It's a big enough game to absorb that loss, and on the flip-side, maybe too big a game to be making a gambit as you've laid out on D1, particularly when it can be revealed as such so easily.

Do you think Esteemed EuchreJack would consider you a good candidate for a Pirate-convert, should he possess such an ability?

I disagree, if pirates don't exist there's no reason to flip Steamed EuchreJack because he's town.

No, I do not think Steamed EuchreJack would consider me a good candidate for a pirate-convert because he dissed my mafia ability earlier. I would refuse to work with him if he tried.

More importantly, Imp continues to lie that I "said yes to being converted" when I EXPLICITLY said no. Dishonestly mischaracterizing what other people say is a blatant scumtell, especially for players of Imp's type, and something Imp did last game, as scum, which drew my attention at the time as well.

This isn't ambiguous unless you just can't parse the indirect phrasing.

When I die, it's likely everyone will wish I had died later, unless I'm the last kill needed for that side that needs me dead.
If I die by action of Pirate, Mafia, or SK - you benefit your enemies more than you benefit yourself.  I predict you and your team (if you have a team) will wish someone else had killed me, and killed me later in the game at that.

The claim is that if Imp is killed by an anti-town faction, it'd help that anti-town faction. Is Max trying to obfuscate here?

It's always been extremely ambiguous whether an Imp death is supposed to help or hurt scum and exactly who it'll help or hurt.

What? No, that literally says the opposite, that a team who kills Imp would benefit that team's enemies and make that team wish someone else had done it.
Imp has been using convoluted phrasing like that and being vague about what "enemies" are (I speculated Hunters earlier), as well as what happens if killed by town, seemingly to cause precisely this confusion, though.

[Imp]

Anyway, I specifically told EuchreJack not to recruit me. You can't just cut off the first half and ignore the rest, that's incredibly shady.

I quote what you said.

I claim to not know how the conversion that EuchreJack claims he can do works, or if he can do it.  I sure saw him claim it many times, and consistently.  He also appeared to be inviting.

I'm incredibly concerned about Wubadict having been converted.

Wubadict said similar to you, yes but no/no but yes:

Also also, please ask Fallacy how mechanically your team chat works, because depending on how it works, you could possibly use it on me.

If it needs consent, technically this is consent.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

I do... Ah, but I cannot!  Give it to Lenglon, she seems trustworthy.

If that allowed webadict's conversion - which I don't know, I just see a behavior change, and call what I see - then you're in the same boat.

Which might not be a boat.  I don't know what's going on.  All I know is, if I die right now, I flip town, and my dreams die with me if I die to anything other than a kill action of someone who is Mafia, SK, or Pirate aligned.

I sure don't wanna be converted, and I'm likely to be increasingly useful to everyone over time.  As I said before, I expect when I die most if not all will wish I'd died later, and if I die to Mafia, Pirate, or SK kill action, that killer will wish anyone else had killed me, and killed me later as well.

[FallacyofUrist]

FallacyofUrist - [1] Does a Pirate-hunter leave play when the last Pirate dies?  [2] Does the survival of any Pirate-miller that are actually town affect the wincon of a Pirate-hunter, should one exist?

[1] Yes. Well, in more absurd circumstances, no, but usually yes. If it's still possible for the Pirates to win they've all died, somehow, then the Pirate-Hunter would remain in play. It's just that, usually, once a faction is totally eliminated, their chance of victory is nil.

[2] Hunters win as long as their target alignment loses. A Pirate-miller would not be an actual Pirate, and therefore would not be a concern to the Pirate-Hunter's wincon.

[Lenglon]

Knightwing: Lynch all Lurkers.

please carry on.

[ToonyMan]

I'm kind of at the point of thinking that "Pirates" have never been a team and the three people talking about seeing "Pirates" in red are just the mafia team inventing a second scumteam for us to hunt.

That is soooooo stupid.

You're stupid.

Jim. Just shoot me. I will have no hard feelings over this. We can then lynch Jack today and town can hunt the rest of the Mafia which is probably an actual team of people right now and who we will be really facing in this game. Arguing about Pirates is stupid when I believe Jack is the only one and that he has been caught. I don't believe there are conversions, Jack already explained here:

The role Pirate King gives me access to the Pirate chat.  I can recruit 3 other people to join Pirate chat. They will also inspect as Pirate.

JACK DOES NOT CONVERT PEOPLE TO PIRATE

HE HAS THEM JOIN THIS "PIRATECHAT" AND NOW INSPECT AS "PIRATE"

IF A TOWN PLAYER JOINS THE PIRATECHAT THEY ARE STILL TOWN

IT'S BASICALLY LIKE JACK CAN MAKE SOMEONE A PIRATE-MILLER LIKE ME

[Maximum Spin]

Wubadict said similar to you, yes but no/no but yes:

I did not say "yes but no/no but yes". I said no. There's no non-no interpretation of what I said in standard English.

[Imp]

The claim is that if Imp is killed by an anti-town faction, it'd help that anti-town faction. Is Max trying to obfuscate here?

Please, I clarify.

at start of play, it is confirmed to me that existing scum teams were quoted one of my abilities.  It tells them (and me, I get to see this too), in part, find whoever has that ability, kill them, and get stuff, and that if an SK kills me, the SK gets the stuff.  Whoever kills me first, 'victory' is implied, 'Villians Victorious'.

Other abilities I have render that rather... not quite so.

Sure, they get the stuff, but it gets accursed.  The stuff I can give, if I can give it - and right now, under the current circumstances, I cannot give anything - is not accursed.  I can also use it too, if it's usable by me.

Also, while yeah, 'Villians Victorious', that doesn't say which villians.

Pirate hunters are not villains, to town.  Nor are mafia hunters.  I don't think those are the other villians, though the answer I got was very vague indeed.  I think what actually happens is the other anti-town faction(s) get some effective, equivalent benefit that my killer's faction doesn't.  That seems the most likely explanation to me, but those are some weasel words, and maybe if there's only one anti-town faction when I die, maybe then it's actually town that gets the help, as the only remaining, 'enemy of the enemy'.

But if I die to any other means, not action of a SK, Mafia, or Pirate alignment person, those 'traps' don't go off.  And if I don't die, I can make cool stuff happen, likely more over time, and the effect of my death, if effect, is likely stronger later as well.

So I am being super, super, super careful to watch for conversion risks, as part of my flavor text only suggested was a choice I could make.  But that's just 'flavor', no confirmations there that I can understand, but not outright denial either.  And I see a lot of people offering stuff, in various ways.  EEEEEK.  I say no to it all, except yeah, would be nice if someone decides, if able, to protect from conversion and/or kills.