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[Elephant Parade]

If sofanthiel and ToonyMan are neck and neck when I leave, I'll have to switch to sofanthiel. I'll take my #2 scumpick over my #1 townpick, even if my #1 and #~3-4 scumpicks are on their wagon. Would still prefer MS but nobody else seems interested

[hector13]

@Toony I did ask you to provide some posts as to why you think sofanthiel is heavily engaged in the game. I’m open to being convinced I’m wrong, though you presenting it as newbkilling when I’ve given them pleeeeeeenty opportunity to convince me otherwise is unfair.

[sofanthiel]

You are a cheeky mare if you expect me to take you asking me that question when you’ve ignored me asking who you think is scum and town for the entire bloody day, m80.

Basically what I wanted to do last night was have Toony present what posts made then think sofanthiel is being heavily engaged in the game, because all I see are excuses not to participate.

Saying we ignored your questions and made excuses is untruthful; we refused to say a name because we wanted a no-lynch.  I've outlined my reasons for that passive play-style and why I subsequently changed it here:

I can't speak for the other newbies, but when one can't control how others read their behavior, especially when very experienced players are present, making no enemies or decisions on day 1 means others are presented with little information to work with to figure out alignment/role.  Another thing is that, at least in regular in-person games, the mafia usually tends to target those who suspect them.  You would've lynched someone either way; we couldn't have convinced you otherwise, so our voting, given the difficulty of actually reaching a verdict, seemed superfluous.  Neutrality didn't strike me as a particularly bad approach for both survival and concealing my identity, although I did give it up after multiple people became agitated.

I would prefer sofanthiel because they seem to be a bit more maliciously ignorant (if that makes any sense, see them ignoring EP’s questions recently as an example) than Snowkiller.

I didn't answer every question because some of them were so bland (sorry, EP!), they almost seemed rhetorical.  Like, for example:

How can you vote strategically when you think the outcome is fixed?

What non-generic answer can I provide?  What does that even mean??  I did, however, answer all of these in a separate reply.

I don't think the difference between Crystallizedmire and sofanthiel's respective willingness to engage makes the former more town as opposed to more willing to play, but I suppose that's enough to make them a slightly less attractive lynch.

Hey!  Just because I'm not throwing red text left and right doesn't mean my engagement is that bad.

Question: would you rather be lynched over Toony?

No.  Unlike myself, I am not 100% confident of Toony's alignment.

Do you trust Elephant then? Or me for that matter?

I don't believe either one of you is mafia, but trust isn't what I'd call that.

[ToonyMan]

I’ve been thinking it’s a newbie tied with a more experienced player for a bit. I was worried it might be you, but now I’m not so sure. Then again I think you’re the best player in terms of looking town, so… benefit of the doubt I guess. The next experienced player in line is Max.

So you're judging who my teammate is based solely on their skill level, regardless of how town they seem?  Isn't that a bit arbitrary? Who do you think it would be based on the actual interactions I've had and how I played?

You are a cheeky mare if you expect me to take you asking me that question when you’ve ignored me asking who you think is scum and town for the entire bloody day, m80.

… I’m using process of elimination, just not sharing my working out.

I think it’s one of you or Snowkiller right now, possibly even both, which would be a horrific baptism of fire for you but dems de breaks sometimes.

I’ve outlined why I think it’s not CM.

My theory is that I don't think your scumpicks can make any sense because you're mafia. I think this is why in this post when I'm speculating worlds where you or Max are town the town!Hector world seems very unclear. You're trying to figure out which players you can get away with voting. You started by focusing on the newbies (whether or not Crystal is mafia is not relevant right now) and even though you said earlier in the game it was just to get their asses going, it's really just a way to not be happy with them and have them as your toppicks anyway.

Meanwhile, look at Elephant Parade for comparison. They held a strong suspicion of Caz, enough to vote them. But once Caz was around they reconsidered. This makes me believe Elephant is naturally forming thoughts and conclusions in his head. This is a reason why I feel better about Elephant.

Which is something I don't believe you're doing, Hector.

If sofanthiel and ToonyMan are neck and neck when I leave, I'll have to switch to sofanthiel. I'll take my #2 scumpick over my #1 townpick, even if my #1 and #~3-4 scumpicks are on their wagon. Would still prefer MS but nobody else seems interested

I'll be more interested in Max after D1 if they're around. I'm sure he feels the same about me.

[ToonyMan]

@Toony I did ask you to provide some posts as to why you think sofanthiel is heavily engaged in the game. I’m open to being convinced I’m wrong, though you presenting it as newbkilling when I’ve given them pleeeeeeenty opportunity to convince me otherwise is unfair.

Sofanthiel has constantly been a part of this game.

What do I even need to show

literally

read the thread

[Maximum Spin]

I'll be more interested in Max after D1 if they're around. I'm sure he feels the same about me.

If I'm still around d2, I'll think it isn't you, honestly.

Sofanthiel has constantly been a part of this game.

What do I even need to show

literally

read the thread

It just feels like he's been fucking around. I'm pretty sure that's what hector's thinking too.
I'd rather vote out Snowkiller, to be sure, but this is the way things stand right now. I'm not AGAINST it by any stretch.

[Elephant Parade]

I didn't answer every question because some of them were so bland (sorry, EP!), they almost seemed rhetorical.  Like, for example:

How can you vote strategically when you think the outcome is fixed?

What non-generic answer can I provide?  What does that even mean??  I did, however, answer all of these in a separate reply.

I think my answer was confusing because I misunderstood what you meant:

If so, we can probably team up and vote strategically because it doesn't currently look like Toony is making it through the lynching.

I read this to mean, "Toonyman will definitely be lynched at the end at the end of the day, so we should strategically vote together for someone else." That's obvious nonsense because if a player is lynched, any votes for other players are necessarily symbolic, not strategic*... which probably should've been my first clue that that wasn't what you meant. I now think that you wanted to vote with me against another player in the hopes that that player would amass enough votes to be lynched instead of ToonyMan. Am I correct?

^{* In the sense that they don't matter to the immediate outcome of the vote}

[sofanthiel]

Sofanthiel has constantly been a part of this game.

What do I even need to show

literally

read the thread

Y'know, you've got a good point!

[sofanthiel]

Am I correct?

Mhm, but that's not relevant anymore, as now I'm the one not surviving today's lynching.

[ToonyMan]

I'll be more interested in Max after D1 if they're around. I'm sure he feels the same about me.

If I'm still around d2, I'll think it isn't you, honestly.

Yeah, sure, sure...

I think I'm willing to vote Snowkiller over Sofanthiel if it comes to that but I don't think it's a good vote still.

If so, we can probably team up and vote strategically because it doesn't currently look like Toony is making it through the lynching.

I read this to mean, "Toonyman will definitely be lynched at the end at the end of the day, so we should strategically vote together for someone else." That's obvious nonsense because if a player is lynched, any votes for other players are necessarily symbolic, not strategic*... which probably should've been my first clue that that wasn't what you meant. I now think that you wanted to vote with me against another player in the hopes that that player would amass enough votes to be lynched instead of ToonyMan. Am I correct?

^{* In the sense that they don't matter to the immediate outcome of the vote}

From my perspective, Sofanthiel's actions don't make sense if they're mafia.

[Maximum Spin]

From my perspective, Sofanthiel's actions don't make sense if they're mafia.

Could you explain why, for me?

[hector13]

Yeah, sofanthiel was all no lynch no lynch no lynch for quite a bit of D1 despite numerous sources saying that’s not going to fly, going so far as using statistical arguments for justification and being told they don’t fly, statistical arguments for why EP is town very early in D1, and ignoring again multiple sources demanding they give a read one way or another, until they used someone else’s justification for voting Caz. They’re also talking for Snowkiller a lot which… really weird.

The fact you, Toony, are glossing over all that for a newb!town read really bothers me.

I started the day on EP to see what would happen (and also got us out of doing RVS basically immediately as a consequence, I might add) then shifted to CM to get them into it, was sufficiently convinced they’re not scum and moved to sofanthiel because of the aforementioned lack of intent. Shifted to you because in my sleep inertia thought you might crack, and then back to sofanthiel because I am still bemused as to why they can’t tell us who their top town and scum picks are, however poorly justified. With their own justifications for it.

How about Snowkiller then? I’ve said my preference would be sofanthiel, but there’s very little between them.

PPE: well you said you would, and I will, but I’ll curious to see where Max can get to.

[Crystalizedmire]

I honestly think that sofanthiel is just a newbie not avoiding questions cause they're scum.

[ToonyMan]

From my perspective, Sofanthiel's actions don't make sense if they're mafia.

Could you explain why, for me?

Sofanthiel wanted to team up with Elephant there to save me. Not sure why they bother as mafia, especially if they're so disengaged with the game.

How about Snowkiller then? I’ve said my preference would be sofanthiel, but there’s very little between them.

I'm a bit opposed because now I would be siding with a player I suspect, but maybe I'm wrong and you're somehow right that's it's Sofanthiel and Snowkiller. That's the only reasoning I can see that makes sense. Which makes me look like a complete moron. A hard hurdle to cross...

I honestly think that sofanthiel is just a newbie not avoiding questions cause they're scum.

I don't know why Crystal is seeing this and not Hector or Max.

[hector13]

I honestly think that sofanthiel is just a newbie not avoiding questions cause they're scum.

You’re a newbie. You came into the game with basically zero knowledge of how to play, but you’re offering up your opinions and justifications for them. Why can’t sofanthiel and Snowkiller?

PPE: I mean… above paragraph. I’m not looking for stunning analytical play that solves the game now. I’m looking for effort, which I’ve been trying to get for the entire day.

Back when Tric started I didn’t have to go to this much effort to get something out of him.