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[EuchreJack]

We probably need to give NQT a pass with his broken screen.  Plus I'm not getting a scum vibe from him, instead a slight town vibe.

Not in love with Hector's play throughout.  Still, a vigorous attack on me.  Perhaps unskilled Townie. 
I think I want to keep Hector alive to see if they can ever press a case on someone that isn't me.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim

This was another thing raising my hackles.

notquitethere

Mmmmmm, I don't feel this. I'll stack it on top of all my other misgivings about you.

I should, but I won't, check what your case on notquitethere is and see if I feel there's merit to it.

You know one thing that really ticks me off about mafia games? Having to read through Tric's posts, don't make me do it, guy.

Another thing that bothers me though, is disingeuousnessnessness.

You've trimmed out context for that vote, and also ignored the post I made nearby that one (this quoted post is #347, the one I refer to is #342) in which I laid out some questions for NQT to answer, one of which was less than serious, and should thus alert people to how serious the vote was.

That post was also 10 posts after post #332, in which I said I was not feeling up to playing mafia for the day for myriad reasons, or am I also allowed to get all hot and bothered the next time you say you'd prefer to play Noita than mafia?

So apparently I didn't intuit your intent correctly across multiple posts in regard to your vote on notquitethere.

This isn't me being disingenuous. I don't think it was clear.

lengthy complaint about meta reads

I'll acknowledge that you don't like me using meta reads.

Regarding Paranormal 27: These are fair points about FoU's circumstances in that game, but I still recognize a lot of his current play in that game and I don't necessarily think that how he plays in that circumstance is unique to that circumstance. I also want to point out that I was on to him on Day 1 and wanted to lynch him on Day 1, so even before the game was mechanically solved I did correctly identify him as scum in that game.

I want to say there are other examples of his play that I'm thinking of that are coloring my read; Magic Mafia comes to mind but that was two years ago; I was also on to him on Day 1 but for incorrect reasons. Automafia is on my mind since that was last week, and he was town in that game and completely unlike how he is in this game. It's almost like he finally had enough trial and error to understand how to have a decent town game. The contrast between Automafia and this game is stark; FoU is serene in that game compared to this one.

After your post Max rescues me and mentions the examples he's thinking of that inform his meta read on FoU.

Yes, Magic Mafia is a relevant example. There's this post where FallacyofUrist tries to propose a scum team that doesn't include notquitethere who Vector had gotten a guilty alignment inspect on. It's the same type of post from him as the one in this game where he proposes lynching TricMagic because it's informative, and also a lot like the post in Paranormal 27 where he proposes his Jimbot Hivemind theory; a bafflingly bad plan that FoU nonetheless presents with utmost seriousness and wholeheartedly commits to.

So yes, it is fair to mention the circumstances in Paranormal 27, but I'm not going to give up my meta read on FoU. Or on TricMagic for that matter.

juicebox's case against FoU

This is a good case!

Who's more trustworthy - Jim Groovester or hector13?

hector13 no contest simply through avoiding most of the Tric argument and not making bizzare semi contradictory or confusing posts like Jim has done

Like when!?

Jim and Max pushed a case against FoU involving problems with his case against Tric. You should ask for them to give you their own summaries of their cases, especially Jim, because I don't think they'd agree that my summary of their cases would be fair.

Alrighty sure
@Jim
@Max
@FoU
@Tric
What's your summary of the argument so far? Would you say Lenglons is close to being right?

It's more or less fine. I don't like the bit about there being a serious possibility of TricMagic being scum fakeclaiming third party. There was never any serious chance of that being a possibility.

Do you have any opinions of your own that you'd like to share yet?

PPE:  Oh hey there's Curious_Cat.

Curious_Cat:  Can you clarify your case on Fallacy, please?

I'm not sure I can explain it better than in the post I linked to above (the one where I asked Fallacy and Tric some questions), but I basically think that lynching either Fallacy or Tric would provide a lot of information for the town to go on and, if Fallacy turned out to be a mis-lynch, the repercussions for the town would be less that if Tric were mis-lynched.

You're on the right track for what you should be looking for out of a lynch but you don't have it quite right yet.

An informative lynch is important, but the way I prefer to think about it is as testing solutions (I might've unconsciously picked this up from mafia universe or somewhere else because I'm pretty sure I didn't come up with this myself.) You want to come up with a solution to the game, i.e., a list of players you want to lynch and an order to lynch them that wins you the game, and then you use the lynch to test the solution, and if you're right, you keep testing your solution, and if you're wrong, you reevaluate and come up with a different solution.

So lynching TricMagic or FallacyofUrist might be informative, but are they part of your solution that wins you the game?

Yeah, this case has exhausted its usefulness. Since there's no way it actually goes through unless Tric makes the scum slip of a lifetime, unvote.

So if I read this right you still suspect TricMagic but don't think you can get him?

Everybody makes fun of me for wanting to play Noita,

but I haven't played any goddamn Noita since starting this game. :(

You could always give an actual response to my case against you if you want instead of a blank dismissal and then going silent like you have.

Summarize my case to me from my perspective and if you get it right we can talk. And no just quoting my posts.

I complained to you that you mischaracterized my case and you've done nothing about it. If we can't agree on what my case actually is then it doesn't matter how much I engage you about it since it will go nowhere.

Jimothy: Who's after FoU on your scumlist?

I have misgivings about hector13 that haven't really gone away but I probably complain about lurkers before hector13. I said earlier in Day 1 that if Egan_BW stops talking, which is what's happened, they're scum. This is a meta read on Egan_BW by the way.

Knightwing64 and Fluffe9911 are both probably worth shooting too. I could probably be talked into EuchreJack.

So today the benefit of the big fight is that it's drawn up sides of support and negation.

Tric, Jim, Toaster vs Fallacy, Lenglon

Who else?

Max, Tric, Jim, Toaster, juicebox, ToonyMan, A_Curious_Cat I guess vs Fallacy, Lenglon, hector13

Probably more than a couple who weighed in who wish they hadn't.



I'm pretty well burned out on this Day 1. I probably don't play with much detail tomorrow.

[Jim Groovester]

These recent Jack posts are fine. If he had made them continuously through Day 1 I would probably read him town.

I'll retain some wariness though because of the absence.

[notquitethere]

Quick thought: Tric claims his role is to give hats. Other players have indicated that hat ownership seems to be widespread. It seems like the hats Tric could give are already owned by others.

Tric is probably lying and his role actually takes hats.

Ppe: Jim, I could have said the exact same thing about Jack as you say in your last post

[A_Curious_Cat]

Quick thought: Tric claims his role is to give hats. Other players have indicated that hat ownership seems to be widespread. It seems like the hats Tric could give are already owned by others.

Tric is probably lying and his role actually takes hats.

or (possibly) he has the ability to do both.

Robin Hat...

[Lenglon]

Everybody makes fun of me for wanting to play Noita,

but I haven't played any goddamn Noita since starting this game. :(

You could always give an actual response to my case against you if you want instead of a blank dismissal and then going silent like you have.

Summarize my case to me from my perspective and if you get it right we can talk. And no just quoting my posts.

I complained to you that you mischaracterized my case and you've done nothing about it. If we can't agree on what my case actually is then it doesn't matter how much I engage you about it since it will go nowhere.

Yeah, no. You don't get to dictate terms to me. I characterized your case perfectly accurately and you just don't like the fact that I called you out on what you were really doing. Please, try and sell me on how your case is something different from what I said. Here, i'll put it in step-by-step format for ya:

Step 1) since you've claimed that I didn't state your case accurately, state what "totally not a new case" it actually is.
Step 2) provide references to prove that what you claim your case is, is what it has always been, and not some new case that you're borrowing from someone else like I'm expecting you to try to ass-pull.
Step 3) justify your "totally not a new case" that you are now presenting.

I included my references in my case against you for a reason, and my characterization of your case is what it is because that's the logic you yourself provided to support what you said. Not my problem that you don't like what past you said.

[notquitethere]

Spoiler: UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT (click to show/hide)

-> FallacyofUrist --4-- Jim Groovester*, Maximum Spin*, A_Curious_Cat*, Toaster*,
EuchreJack        --3-- notquitethere*, Fluffe9911*, ToonyMan*,
Toaster           --1-- EuchreJack*,
Jim Groovester    --1-- Lenglon*,
Lenglon           --1-- TricMagic*,
notquitethere     --1-- hector13*,
Egan_BW           --1-- EuchreJack*,
TricMagic         --0--
A_Curious_Cat     --0--
Fluffe9911        --0--
hector13          --0--
juicebox          --0--
Knightwing64      --0--
Maximum Spin      --0--
ToonyMan          --0--
No One            --0--

Not Voting        --4-- Egan_BW*, juicebox, Knightwing64, FallacyofUrist*

I looked back at the last three BYORs, as I had a hunch about players that don't use their vote actively.

In BYOR13, at end of D2 three players weren't voting (we won't count D1 because Flabort spammed a load of votes after being daykilled and brought back to life and no one else got a look in). These players were Mysteriousbluepuppet, Varee, Tiruin. They were, respectively, a serial killer (that game's equivalent of mafia), and two town.

In BYOR14 at end of D1, flabort, Tiruin, Jack A T, and Teneb weren't voting. They were, respectively, mafia-ally, town, mafia, and town.

In BYOR15, apparently everyone voted at EOD D1, but on D2, TricMagic, dolores, Jim Groovester weren't voting. The latter two were modkilled (for inactivity?), and all three were town, town and scum respectively.

All to say, is that lynching from the pool of nonvoters gives you 33%-50% chance of hitting scum. If you remove from that pool players that have a history of ineffective vote use regardless of alignment (in the above examples, that was Tiruin) then that raises to 50%-66% chance. Compare that to the ~21%-29% of shooting blind (assuming 3-4 mafia-aligned players).

Who isn't currently voting?
Egan_BW: was voting Tric, then decided he was third-party. Has a low number of total posts. What now?

Knightwing64: not expected to make skilled use of votes but has contributed less than normal, but has produced one or two decent posts.

juicebox: Has made a number of votes on and off, will likely vote again. Actually requested the lurker tracker...

FallacyofUrist: recently unvoted, will likely vote again? Very invested, not a lurker.

[Lenglon]

A_Curious_Cat  - new player. Given new player grace period, so far has done nothing scummy. If they were a vet their behavior would have been lynch-worthy for several reasons, they aren't a vet. moving on.
Egan_BW        - silent RVS, excellent midgame, silent lategame. They're next on the docket for a LAL policy-vote after the current docket clears.
EuchreJack     - scummy lurker. They start the game by attempting to defer their votes to others, with minimal participation. Eventually they get called out on their lurking and suddenly they're here and posting generic analysis and just going with what seems popular. I'd be happy to lynch this.
FallacyofUrist - complicated, will address in detail below.
Fluffe9911     - new player. Given new player grace period, so far has done nothing scummy. Similar to cat if they were a Vet they'd be lynchable, but they're not a vet. However if I had to chose between Cat and Fluffe, I'd lynch Fluffe.
hector13       - very wordy posts that are annoying to go through because they get repetitive. Does seem to be paying attention, and my emotional read of them feels like they're playing in a fairly... detached... sort of way. In of itself that's a nulltell, but it's interesting. Someone I want to keep an eye on and who I don't trust my read of just yet.
Jim Groovester - I'm literally pushing a case against Jim right now. What do you think.
juicebox       - annoying me because they're disagreeing with my views on a lot of things, but they seem town nontheless.
Knightwing64   - I want a Lynch-All-Lurkers policy-lynch on this person.
Lenglon        - Hi, I'm me.
Maximum Spin   - In my opinion has the most well-reasoned case against FoU. Is clearly putting thought into this. I'm concerned that he's being sheeped by Jim.
notquitethere  - Has a broken laptop. Life happens. Given grace period.
Toaster        - Highly independent. Another person that I like that disagrees with me. I want to see
ToonyMan       - Annoys me. During the whole FoU debacle Toony didn't vote FoU, and didn't vote Jim either. He simply egged them on to vote each other. In a world where FoU and Jim are both town, then this is scum manipulating the shitshow.
TricMagic      - Literally just third party. There is no other interpretation. Worth using an inspect on to confirm because we're letting scum behavior pass by without comment because he's third party, but not worth discussing or lynching. Jim and Max would put Tric as 100% not mafia, I am only willing to put Tric as 100% not town.

I still want Jim out, but nobody seems willing to engage with my case or even ask questions about it. I'm just seeing "ah hmmmm yessss. This is good case." and then they go elsewhere. What? If you agree with me, vote with me, if you disagree with me, then say what's wrong. Why am I the only one bothered by this?
Regarding FoU. Quite simply, I'm still convinced FoU is town.

FoU does have a tendency to get something stuck in his head, and then to bite down and never let go. The thing is, this is a nulltell from him. And it can actually be quite useful if what he bites down on is real. But it's a known trait of FoU.
Jim's vote on FoU early made sure that Tric's alignment confusion was in the forefront of FoU's mind. Toaster's complaints about how Tric is being allowed to get away with scum behaviors kept it there. It's trivial to follow where the Tric fixation came from.
So of course, FoU does some grandstanding on the Tric issue after mulling it over a bit. And then he gets pushback. a LOT of pushback. Pushback from everyone that had RVS suspicion of him. the standard gigantic OMGUS from Tricmagic. Pushback even from those that didn't have suspicion of him before like myself because a 3p lynch is not a good lynch.
And then, as he has shown in the past, he tried to engage with every single individual piece of it. exhausted himself, and began to feel overwhelmed for obvious reasons when he had received literal pages of pushback from half the entire town, and nobody backed him up. not a single person.
And at that critical point Jim comes in with a full lynch case. While FoU's obviously extremely vulnerable and exhausted. And so he doesn't take it well. shocking.
FoU's reactions beyond that point are standard flailing. The flailing of an exhausted player who thinks the world's against them. Not town. Not scum. Just human.
This kind of situation is WHY I care about my emotional reads. You have to try to keep track of the person behind the screen.
And Jim is just as capable of this as I am, probably moreso because he's known these people better and longer than I. That push of his was calculated to have this result. Look not just at what he said, but the timing of it. the real reason, the one he won't allow to come out in any meaningful way, is because he knew that if he pushed FoU right then, FoU would take it poorly and fail in his defense. There's a reason I called this out when I made my case. I see the flailing the same as anyone. (and that flailing is pretty much exactly what juicebox's case can be summarized as) I'm just also keeping track of WHY FoU's flailing.
Here's something to pay attention to, during all of FoU's panicked flailing, did he pop over to make a case against someone else vulnerable or seemingly vulnerable in order to save his own skin? No.
Did FoU cave to peer pressure from Toonyman to vote Jim without a proper reason to think Jim was scum? No.

FoU's priority, even during panic, was to try to find the actual scum rather than to save his own skin. FoU is town. Period. I will be opposing an FoU lynch today to the best of my ability, because I think the core of the case against him is led by the scum.

I'm never going to be able to use this method to read him again because it's now public and he could fake it. But right here, right now? FoU is town, and Jim is the scum.

[Knightwing64]

Fine, screw school.

Blood in the water

Toaster

Stop accusing me bread boy



Also, Lenglon, where did you get the idea I was highly active from? I’m not, you pulled that out of your magicians hat, a blantantly false illusion. Go and find evidence of me being hyperactive, I post when I can/have the time.

[Knightwing64]

Matter of fact Lenglon, you voting me for lurking makes no sense. According to the tracker thing, I’ve posted more then fluffe, so unless you are basing me “lurking” based on the nine hour window of me (Surprise Surprise) SLEEPING, I don’t see your point.

[Knightwing64]

Respond now so I can disprove you while I have the time

[Knightwing64]

RESPOND

Also, I don’t agree with your opinion that everyone who doesn’t post a large amount is automatically a scummy lurker, it makes no sense. Even if you are of the belief they don’t contribute to town, that’s still a town member now dead for the crime of being less active then you would prefer.

Frankly, I find what you are doing to be the more scummy behavior.

[Knightwing64]

I’m going to lose my mind, I can hear rats in the walls

There's not really any way to partially state it or hint at it, either.

I wish there was. It's all or nothing, and it's costly to reveal it too early, and this would be too early. It'd be beneficial to have shared it if I was dead, and it'd also have the effect at potentially sparing me execution.

Fallacy: Don’t kill me, I have secret super special ability, ur gonna regret this!

Curious Cat: Okey

Fallacy: Wow rly? Kewl

[notquitethere]

I like list-making Lenglon. Pugnacious Knightwing is a good step.

I think we've got 11 hours until the end of day. I'd like to draw from this pool, in roughly this order. Mostly due to slow voting, excessive caution, or laying low.

+++++++ Egan
++++++ Euchrejack
+++++ Fluffe
++++ Juicebox
+++ Fallacy
++ Toony
+ Knightwing

I don't think they're all scum, so I'd like to firm up my views of the pool some more before the end of day vote madness.

[Knightwing64]

PS: I’m confused about your decision making, you are currently pushing a case against Jim and believe him to scum 100%, yet you’re voting me instead because of your belief that I’m a lurker?

Besides, if me and Jim were on a scum team, he would be pushing for me way harder instead of just listing me as one of multiple lynching targets. As he did in demon mafia, unless I’m misremembering.

Pugnacious Knightwing is a good step.

Unknown word, Validation?