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[Maximum Spin]

Maximum Spin:  Who's your pick after Fallacy?  Why?

Assuming Fallacy is in fact scum, or if he turns out to be town somehow?

Also, you quoted juicebox voting Tric, not you.

[Toaster]

EuchreJack:

Toony: I was voting on my own to see how others responded, including voting Toaster as you & Jim seemed to suspect him. But you seem to have been doing well, and I love TMNT, so I guess I can sheep you for a bit.

"I was voting on my own by copying what you did"

At what point of the game are you going to stop sheeping?  I don't mean pretending to not sheep; I mean actually stop.



Maximum Spin:

Maximum Spin:  Who's your pick after Fallacy?  Why?

Assuming Fallacy is in fact scum, or if he turns out to be town somehow?

Also, you quoted juicebox voting Tric, not you.

Neither.  Who's your next pick right now?

Crap.  He votes me here in post #401 and votes Tric here in post #406.  The only intervening post not by him is a barely relevant one by Curious Cat.

[FallacyofUrist]

If TricMagic actually transitions into acting properly town, I'll probably unvote, or move back to Jim.

What? FoU's said they find my defense of Tric genuine but don't find Jim's defense of Tric genuine. I'm saying that Jim put more reasoning into why Tric is likely not mafia than I did at that time. Which Max agreed with as well. So unless FoU is a god-wizard and is right on the money of a Tric/Jim/Max/Hector scumteam I think he's full of crap.

Length and genuineness aren't necessarily the same thing. Jim said more than you, but nothing about Jim's behavior made any sense there, but while yours was shorter, it was at least internally coherent.

[Toaster]

Fallacy:

If TricMagic actually transitions into acting properly town, I'll probably unvote, or move back to Jim.

Is this an actual response to my unvote, which is me unvoting him because I think he's acting better?  It doesn't sound like one.


Hector:

Why you answerin’ questions for other people eh? Totes scum. /s

I should be voting so I guess I’ll back up my stuff on NQT.

*10 hours later*

notquitethere

How serious is this vote?

[FallacyofUrist]

Fallacy:

If TricMagic actually transitions into acting properly town, I'll probably unvote, or move back to Jim.

Is this an actual response to my unvote, which is me unvoting him because I think he's acting better?  It doesn't sound like one.

Currently I don't really care about the number of people voting Tric? He's not going to go down, so what matters more is what I learned from the attempt.

Nearly certain Jim's going to launch a case on me as soon as he's next on the forum.

I do think my case jarred Tric into action, I'm just not sure by how much and whether that means he's town.

[juicebox]

Toaster

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First pass was a bust.  I thought Max's vote of Knightwing here was garbage because he (in my mind) had just defended Tric's non-participation.  Upon further review, he specifically defended Tric the player as is, and not his content.  Past that he's been playing okay; well enough I guess?  Still think his "Miller" claim was a bit sus and late.  I am left with a question, though.

Maximum Spin:  Who's your pick after Fallacy?  Why?


I'm not liking Juicebox, based on two posts.

Quick Pfp

I meant that as in there hasn't been any follow up on it so far. Also what do you mean you're out of vote changes?

I don't like changing my vote a lot. If I don't have someone in mind to change it to, I tend to leave it in one place. So I was just kind of making a joke referencing that.
I didn't really think I needed to follow up. I still think Fallacy's suspicious - Jim actually just did a great job explaining why - but so do several other people, there's a lot of game left, I didn't think I needed to press the issue? This might be part of what ToonyMan means by saying I play selfishly. I just sort of think it is not my job to get this guy in particular voted out. You can even see the clear difference, if you look up webadict's Supernatural, when it was in fact literally my job to get one guy in particular voted out.

Maximum Spin - no complaints, much like notquitethere; His statement about trying to be more helpful did make me raise my eyebrow a little because I remember EuchreJack's comment from AutoMafia where he said if Max is trying to be helpful then he's scum and if he's trying to be aloof then he's town.

I like most everything in this readslist, but I just want to reassure you that EuchreJack isn't the god of my meta.
The eight posts starting from here:
I don't like this disengaged Knightwing, I don't feel good about this fake-looking Jack Panic, and I'm not a fan of this interaction, especially from two people I would most expect to interact like this as scum.
Wow, I guess that's everything. I thought there was going to be more. Maybe in my first readthrough I had more to say that I cared about less this time around.
My first instinct is to vote Knightwing. This isn't related to Lenglon doing so, I've been thinking about it since last night; but the reasoning is the same. This Knightwing seems, once again, to be faking playing the game. I also 100% believe he would submit mafia as his role preference, for what that's worth.

I like this post from Max, it's enough for me to unvote for now

I don't find Max's post near strong enough for Juice to back off a vote here.

Second, this too long to quote post about how he likes one of Knightwing's posts that I find barely adequate.  Maybe we just are really looking for different things in a post, but... yeah, that's how I want to say it.  Juicebox lacks commitment.  In this same post, he votes me...

Oh and before I forget, Tricmagic

But backs off it without mentioning anything else about me.   Overall, his content feels phoned in and inconsistent, with poor reasons for inconsistency.  I'm not QUITE sure enough to throw down a vote, but it's just weird and I don't like it.


Juicebox:  Why, exactly, was the above linked post from Knightwing so good?



Someone else did that too; they posted a vote and then quickly backed off it for no real good reason, but I'll be damned if I can find it now.


I'm not sure I trust Fallacy.  His opening gambit was good, and he's posting enough and presenting analysis.  Mmmmm I feel like he's more interested in getting a lynch in than actually convinced Fallacy is scum?  In his gambit conclusion post:

So, crazy theory. I think the scumteam could realistically be TricMagic, Jim Groovester, and then one or both of hector13/notquitethere, depending on how the setup works out. If there's a bunch of third parties it'd be just one of them, if not it's both.

Jim and notquitethere's behavior seems to match the idea of 'distance the guy that'll drag us down like an anchor if we don't'. Reluctant to target him, but acknowledging that he's funky as hell. Hector is less suspicious, but still a possibility.

If this theory does hold water I'd scum-percentage these people as 100% scum (required) TricMagic, 85% scum Jim, 65% notquitethere, 40% scum hector.

The thing is though?

This makes TricMagic an ideal execution / vote. Based on this connection, it'll be extremely informative about the scumminess or lack thereof of a good few people. Nearly everyone has thoughts on Tric. We don't lose anything from the vote since the most likely outcomes are he's either third party or scum - most of us don't think he's town.

It's, in other words, a safe, effective execution - perfect for Day 1.

I'm willing to sustain this vote for the remainder of the day unless a better target presents themselves.

I feel like he's conflating Tric's guilt and the informative value of Tric's lynch together.  You'll note a lack of conclusions drawn from a Tric flip of anything but red.  (Until Lenglon calls him out on this same point.) 


Okay, yeah.


FallacyofUrist:  What happens to your analysis and plan when I Unvote TricMagic for actually participating now?

Now that I read Knightwing's post again I admit that it isn't as good as I thought it was at first. I still give them some town points for generating some content, but I'm not townreading them as strongly anymore.

As to why I didn't stay on you: I voted for you before I read Fallacy's argument and Tricmagic's responses. After I read those, I saw Tricmagic's slip, and I thought it was better to pressure him because I thought that was a bit more concrete than what I had on you.

[Maximum Spin]

Neither.  Who's your next pick right now?

I really don't like this question. My pick right now is Fallacy. I have other suspicions, but I want to resolve Fallacy in order to inform those suspicions. Even if nobody else in the game were voting Fallacy, I might very well just keep my vote here out of pure stubbornness.
But I tried, really hard, to pretend like Fallacy didn't exist and answer you.
There are enough players that I have to keep checking the first post to remember who's playing, so I don't have the stack space to have fully ordered reads, but just on gut feel and in no particular order, I'd have to say hector and juicebox, with bonus appearance by curry carp for doing nothing useful at all whatsoever, and, indeed, not clearly appearing in this game for any reason except to ask about jargon.
I don't seem to know all that much about juicebox, so it's hard to justify my impression of him. He's just given me an "informed minority" vibe the whole time. To borrow Lenglon's terms, I don't feel like he's acting independently. Here and there he's said things that rubbed me the wrong way.
hector is similar, but I can reify it a little more because I was scum with hector not too long ago (Proc Gen... I want to say 4?), and he reminds me of his play then, in that he seems to be "managing town", so to speak. You know, trying to rhetorically cut off certain things and promote others, not too different from what I accused Fallacy of doing. In that game, we... this may not be the best thing to bring up at this immediate point in time... we goaded Fallacy into acting shady to set him up for the d1 lynch, and made NJW2000 the fall guy. This kind of managing is a strong suit of hector's, I think.
After them I have a lot of "neutral suspicious" that I'd have to try much harder to sort through than I am ready to do on d1 with several more promising candidates. Finally, of course, my handful of reasonably strong town reads. You don't get to know about those but it's probably obvious.

[Jim Groovester]

-> Toaster     --3-- EuchreJack*, EuchreJack*, ToonyMan*,

Despite my issues with Toaster seeing this makes me realize I don't actually want to see him lynched as of right now.

... Music.

Stealing ToonyMan's shtick and engaging in analysis is atypical and makes me raise an eyebrow a bit.

So.. Fallacy. Are you saying you want to Thunderdome with this most fiery dragon of hats? You first, me second.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thunderdomes are stupid, but I'll endorse this one.

notquitethere

Mmmmmm, I don't feel this. I'll stack it on top of all my other misgivings about you.

I should, but I won't, check what your case on notquitethere is and see if I feel there's merit to it.

WAITING TO EVOLVE INTO LATE GAME FORM

(Cool Image)

So true.

MAKE IT HAPPEN FLUFFE9911

Knightwing64, EuchreJack:  Are you sure the people you are following are your benevolent shepards?  Or, are they wolves in shephards clothing leading you to your doom?  Also, how did you come to this conclusion?

Excessively flowery but actually not that bad of a question.

thoughts

I don't dislike this except that Knightwing64 only produced it in response to being voted. He should do it on his own, too!

ugg. hey guys. I should be post number 400, which is neat. I don't have mental energy today, which is probably disappointing after yesterday, but it's the truth.

Remember what I said about you being scum if you stopped talking

Fallacy's case is pretty sound, as Tric usually does make for a good info lynch. Usually I would caution against pushing for such a lynch until later in the day, but as it seems to have caused a slip, I'll let it slide for now.

what

Oh and before I forget, Tricmagic

huh

I was going to say I liked juicebox's posts but then he hits me with this whopper.

FALLACYOFURIST SUPER MEGA PLAN

As an impartial observer (which I am not), this idea has merit on paper.  I'd reaaaaally want to be sure I trusted you before jumping in with both feet (again, as the impartial observer I am not.)

what

I like Toaster's not-TricMagic related content.

This is especially aggravating because he simultaneously implies I’m competent enough to easily figure out Tric’s alignment but too incompetent to hide my scum strategies when I’m mafia.

But reading TricMagic is easy and not incriminating yourself as scum is hard. It is reasonable to suggest that you can be of sufficient skill to succeed at the easy task and fail at the hard task.

doubling down on TricMagic being scum

I think the only points of reference for TricMagic's non town game are Fallacy's BYOR whatever where he was a dragon (deez nutz), the one cult game I ran where he was the cult leader, and then notquitethere's Revolutions game. If he's been scum in other games I don't recall them.

Fallacy's BYOR is a wash since he was a third party SK and did literally nothing SK-like. In the cult game I think I recall him blending into the background and from what I remember of Revolutions TricMagic dialed down the boisterousness, exuberance, personality, etc., a lot for that game.

This game's TricMagic does not match Revolutions or the cult game I ran, but it does match literally every game TricMagic is town in and when he was a dragon or otherwise not on a team, which is what people have been saying.

The thing is, he's not even trying, really. That wouldn't be suspect (knowing Tric), except for the fact that I've seen him actually try to hunt, before. He's not town. I can't look at his behavior and think town, even given Tric's abnormal practices.

I would have just labeled him as third party (see earlier), except people are defending him in really odd ways, starting with Jim.

Can you go read what I said, like the post where I have all my reads and say he's 100% not mafia and that I think he's a third party?

My issue with your read is that you think he is mafia, which does not track at all, or that he's third party and still worth lynching, which is what lazy scum do, which incidentally is what I tried to do on Day 1 to TricMagic in BYOR 15 over literally the same hat bullshit. You were there!

Nearly certain Jim's going to launch a case on me as soon as he's next on the forum.

You make it easy if you double down on literally everything I don't like about how you're playing.



I stopped closely reading midway through FallacyofUrist's and TricMagic's argument and I maintain I missed nothing of substance.

Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.

[Jim Groovester]

Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.

I think the game I'm being reminded of is Paranormal 27. I feel like there are a lot of similarities between that game and this game for how FallacyofUrist is playing.

Okay Jim is the hivemind leader and he converted Max, the psychic warden. Got it.

Wait, fuck, that actually makes sense.

Jim as Hivemind, uses the tech slot to get a Permanent Holoform Modulator. Uses that to show himself like a Kook would.

Converts Max, the psychic warden.

Gets Max's results, and uses the fact that I was roleblocked to fakeclaim a Snooper Bot.

Well, fuck.

I think scum FoU has a bad habit of doubling down on obviously stupid arguments.

[Maximum Spin]

Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.

I believe you absolutely have, because I know I have.

Oh, I see you got an example, too. That was a great one.

[Lenglon]

Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.

...
Jim: Do you mind presenting your full case for us? this is all I can find:

SUSPICIOUS
FallacyofUrist - his read on TricMagic is amongst the worst I've ever seen. I'd feel pretty confident hammering FallacyofUrist this early in the day if he were within range
...
100% NOT MAFIA
TricMagic - easiest read in the game; given how much he's asserting 'not mafia' instead of 'town' he's probably a third party though and it would be safer to shoot him, but not now
...

Lenglon and Tric are pinging scum. Is “Tric is competent and focused as scum and wildly unpredictable as town” still a valid meta read?  I stand by my gut read either way.

I'd say TricMagic isn't really unpredictable as town. I'd argue he's incredibly predictable given that he usually has a single minded focus on his role, which is what I'm seeing here.
...

Do you trust Tric? I don’t trust Tric. Vibe check doesn’t pass. He reads like he knows what he’s doing. It’s like how I always play better when I’m scum.

Voting Tric looks like a potentially reasonable option.

Basically, what we're trying to figure out here is if he's substantially varying from his town baseline. Given how much Tric projects, that's much easier done than for say, Toony. I'd be willing to vote Tric later if a reread of his posts makes me feel like he's scum. Or malevolent third party, though I'd prefer to vote for scum. Chasing third parties too far is a fallacy (rip me).

And Max doesn't feel particularly town, except that's exactly what I felt the last few times I tried to read him, too. There's always this level of detachment which is hard to parse things through.

I do not like these posts. FallacyofUrist gets the read on TricMagic horribly wrong and I do not get any sense from them that FallacyofUrist could hold or could have developed this opinion genuinely. While typing up this post I've at times called these posts gross.
...

Jim: You and I have extremely different views of FoU. Why do you think FoU is scum? I doubt it's only FoU's stance on Tric, despite that being the only thing you said when you voted him.

It literally is only about his stance on TricMagic. FallacyofUrist has been around and should recognize that this is 100% unteamed TricMagic, yet he suspects him.

Why suspect TricMagic? Dunno. I think it's an easy read that town FallacyofUrist should easily be capable of.

FallacyofUrist is alwaysscum but he's also not very good at being scum, so I tend to think he reveals his agenda much more freely than other players would, which is what I think I'm seeing here.

And then your most recent two posts.

The problem I have here is that your entire basis is that "FoU's argument is bad". You don't include what the actual problem with the argument IS.

Please, take the extra steps to build a foundation for your house. What is the core, base, central, problem with FoU's case that makes FoU scum for having it? Stop skipping this step please.

Max: You and Jim seem to be on the exact same wavelength (or team), and are making nearly-identical arguments to him, with the same skipped first step. Could you please answer the same question?

[Lenglon]

To follow up. I don't think you're both town. I think the most likely case is one of you is town, and the other is scum buddying. You might both be scum, but I don't think you'd be buddying so blatently if that were the case. But when I see two people doing "yeah what he said" like this regarding an argument with no foundation, it's worth checking.

[Maximum Spin]

Max: You and Jim seem to be on the exact same wavelength (or team), and are making nearly-identical arguments to him, with the same skipped first step. Could you please answer the same question?

Wrong. I'm making a different but related argument. I don't have a problem with Fallacy's read on Tric except that it's wrong and Tric is town; rather, I have a problem with Fallacy being the one to make it. He's not allowed to do that.
Sorry, that might have been a little too abstruse. I'm pretty tired. What I mean by "he's not allowed to do that" is that it's an argument that, by its construction, mafia Fallacy would make and town Fallacy should not.

The crucial point where I agree with Jim is on Fallacy's habits as a scum player. I'd hope I'd agree with everyone who's used to his play on that. For example, this:

FallacyofUrist is alwaysscum but he's also not very good at being scum, so I tend to think he reveals his agenda much more freely than other players would, which is what I think I'm seeing here.

is certainly true.

[Lenglon]

Max: for clarity, you think Tric is town, not 3p?

[Lenglon]

Max: You and Jim seem to be on the exact same wavelength (or team), and are making nearly-identical arguments to him, with the same skipped first step. Could you please answer the same question?

Wrong. I'm making a different but related argument. I don't have a problem with Fallacy's read on Tric except that it's wrong and Tric is town; rather, I have a problem with Fallacy being the one to make it. He's not allowed to do that.
Sorry, that might have been a little too abstruse. I'm pretty tired. What I mean by "he's not allowed to do that" is that it's an argument that, by its construction, mafia Fallacy would make and town Fallacy should not.

The crucial point where I agree with Jim is on Fallacy's habits as a scum player. I'd hope I'd agree with everyone who's used to his play on that. For example, this:

FallacyofUrist is alwaysscum but he's also not very good at being scum, so I tend to think he reveals his agenda much more freely than other players would, which is what I think I'm seeing here.

is certainly true.

relevant part of the quote turned orange for clarity.