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[jipehog]

Not sure what unemployment has todo with politics or trans. Bloop_bleep account is more along the lines of what I have been hearing, with much complaining about progressive policies affecting hiring/funding and about American post grads being pampered, spoiled and useless when compared to immigrant overachievers. At least in the exact sciences in Massachusetts.

Otherwise, it is my understanding there is some problems in the social sciences which belong to the 'Railgun and Spirituality Discussion' for which both woke and evangelical are equally failing in the pursuit of truth, with some dogmas beset by weak evidence.

[Strongpoint]

Oh... Wow. The W word. In this thread.

Jipehog, it is basic politeness to not use words describing a group of people (ethical, political, religious, whatever) unless the very same group describes themselves as such. Even if you dislike this group or strongly disagree with it. Evangelical is fine because they call themselves that, unlike something like, hmm. Bible thumpers. Woke is really NOT fine.

Personally, I am quite annoyed even by labels that aren't really meant to be offensive and used for convenience like "cishet". Woke is actually meant to be offensive

Also, I suspect that you have no clear definition of who this woke group are.

[Maximum Spin]

Oh... Wow. The W word. In this thread.

Jipehog, it is basic politeness to not use words describing a group of people (ethical, political, religious, whatever) unless the very same group describes themselves as such. Even if you dislike this group or strongly disagree with it. Evangelical is fine because they call themselves that, unlike something like, hmm. Bible thumpers. Woke is really NOT fine.

Personally, I am quite annoyed even by labels that aren't really meant to be offensive and used for convenience like "cishet". Woke is actually meant to be offensive

Also, I suspect that you have no clear definition of who this woke group are.

"Woke" literally started as a self-description, mainly among black activists in the US.

[Starver]

I have sympathies with both sides of the W-Word debate (whether to use it). Though, thesedays, it seems like the more prominent users (in reference to people who are, apparently, that) are those that think it's an insult, and are indiscriminately using it that way.

"I'm woke" isn't a problem, "You're/they're woke" is rarely (intentionally) a complement, without circumstantially establishing the former fact about the speaker first.


And then there's the appropriation (or implied appropriation) from being a certain minority's 'thing' (like "man", between themselves, in response to the traditional punching-down/imphantalising of "boy" by their oppressors. Like, I'd like to think I'm Woke, but maybe I'm a little bit too aware that not everyone would wish me to take on the mantle (if, indeed, I'm even sufficiently enlightened to do so). Does it technically also cover other minority/discriminated groups from those that coined it?


But it does tend to highlight the kind of people who are annoyed by 'wokeness', trying to make it a general perjorative for all they fnbd wrong with their version of the world. And good for them! No, hobestlt... They don't deserve to be comfortably wallowing in their prejudices, and given that they're going to be unreconstructedly annoyed by loads of actually quite good things.

[voliol]

Jipehog, that's just plain rude, in more ways than the choice of a certain word. What are the reasons, when someone is recoounting experiencing oppression due to being trans, in the LGBTQ+ thread, to tell them to go somewhere else?

Vector, I can sadly not give much advice due to being not from the United States (and having little insight into the academic careers here), but I hope it works out for you in the end. Be it in your state, in Cali or some other less regressive state, or even outside the borders of the union (how's Canada?).

[jipehog]

@Starver. There are many terms that change meaning over time from positive to negative, and vice versa as people reclaim them. Regardless, in this case the terms are unimportant to the point being made, I don't think that evangelical is the most accurate descriptor either but that the framing provided in previous comment and almost certainly everyone understood its meaning.

Personally, I was mostly interested to contrast what I have been hearing with another accounts from someone from the USA. But since the second part is what caught everyone attention (if only tangentially, and to tie this to previous discussion in 'Railgun and Spirituality Discussion' @Strongpoint) i will leave this: Two incompatible sacred values in American universities

What are the reasons, when someone is recoounting experiencing oppression due to being trans, in the LGBTQ+ thread, to tell them to go somewhere else?

I think you either misread or confused me with someone else.

[EuchreJack]

I'm gonna miss jipehog when he gets banned...

[bloop_bleep]

I'm gonna miss jipehog when he gets banned...

Shush. He doesn't get into much trouble.

[Strongpoint]

"Woke" literally started as a self-description, mainly among black activists in the US.

Etymology is irrelevant. Languages mutate. Also, it was a way more narrow group of people than what is meant nowadays (Not that there is a clear definition)

[KittyTac]

Yes I am woke and a SJW and I am proud of it. It doesn't work as an insult at me. I'm trying to reclaim it lol.

[jipehog]

That's the spirit. People who use it as pejorative are generally trying to shutdown the conversation with that handwave.

[Vector]

So, I'm going to clarify via a couple of bullet points:

- I have been harassed in public for being suspiciously trans in California (while doing literally nothing wrong/overtly trans-flavored, i.e. no visible pride flags or whatever)
- I enjoy attending drag shows
- I enjoy reading books about and by trans people. I am a very heavy-duty library user
- I enjoy being able to use restrooms in public spaces without being worried about criminal charges or harassment. When available, I always use all-gender restrooms
- I want and need ready access to abortion. I find the concept of being pregnant kind of horrifying
- I may need access to gender-affirming care (medical transition) or tools like PreP
- If I had a trans child, I would allow them to transition, too, because jesus christ been there done that.
- I have on numerous occasions considered taking advantage of California state laws that would allow me to change my gender markers on legal documents to an X
- I, like most people, do not enjoy being misgendered, and people passing laws about it being ok to misgender schoolchildren doesn't give me the most faith in the surrounding society
- I really struggle emotionally when I experience targeted harassment and nothing about my present workplace environment makes me think that continuing in a career in the exact sciences will somehow result in an "ok" degree of harassment.

Finally, yes, trans people are a protected class in California and New York. Great! Do those protections have teeth? Do any universities there have tenure-track positions in the very specific area of mathematics in which I'm getting a degree? Can I build a national career based on postdoc positions from trans safe states only? What about the locations of where the big career-building math conferences are held? For example, is the International Congress of Mathematicians going to meet in Russia again? Will I be able to get invitations to present at seminars, over Zoom say, in unsafe states? Or will I need to lose out on those opportunities?

The point here is not to say "I know it will be like X Y or Z." The point is that a thinking person looks at this situation, says: "well, I know of two working mathematicians in the whole country who are trans and sentiment is becoming worse and worse and worse. I will have to figure out what to do next."

[Rockeater]

Fuck, now I am reminded of the summer school in Hungary, I can stealth, I do it right now, I am not sure if it's worth it, I hope to be out by this point.

[Great Order]

Stealth as in being your AGAB, or as in not being visibly trans as your actual gender? I wish you luck either way.

[EuchreJack]

The point is that a thinking person looks at this situation, says: "well, I know of two working mathematicians in the whole country who are trans and sentiment is becoming worse and worse and worse. I will have to figure out what to do next."

How many working mathematicians in the US were openly trans 20 years ago?
How many are you likely to be unaware of, given your pool of known working mathematicians and expected total of known working mathematicians?