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[Lidku]

Lidku, I don't know where to start with you, but you'll have to assume that at least four people telling you your vote reasoning is bad might be a good launch point.

If nothing truly matters in D1 like you said before, no harm in going for the non-wagon route, right?

Let's pretend that flip-flopping is a scumtell

It has in the past for me, when EuchreJack and Jim Groovester where in a team and EuchreJack at the last minute flip-flopped hammer'd Oliverz. You were the GM in that game, so I don't know why you blanket say it's not somesort of scumtell.. unless you have interest in obscurate your own reasons for flip-flopping. And it's cool that you just say STATISTICS out of nowhere to back-up your claims here (with no discernible statistics shown)...

a flip-flop between posts in three minutes shows that there was some kind of thought that went on between posts.

A small 3-minute span between posts in your decision with changing votes shows you didn't put any thought into at all. Someone like NQT, who has changed their votes often this D1, with reasonable purposes for doing so and within an adequate span between posts, is someone to take example at.

But you, webadict? Your D1 post behavior seems coordinated and non-genuine. First Max in your initial vote, to make it seem like you both aren't teaming, then immediately after (only within a span of 3 minutes after your vote for Max), go after Knightwing.

But, flip-flopping isn't a bad thing, so even if that were the case, your evidence has to be that my flip-flop reasoning is scummy, not that the flip-flop is scummy.

Except I primarily have attacked at your reasoning for flip-flopping. You and Max both know Knight would have been easy to crack under pressure and not play seriously after feeling he'd have a high chance of being lynched.

Then if he DID get lynched on D1, you'd both still be safe, because with both of your experience, you'd just be able to play off the mislynch quite easily. Just chalk it up under "RVS" or Town likely being lynched on D1 being an "unfortunate common occurrence".

The play-off would be even easier, considering how both you and Max have indirectly shifted all D1 interest to Knightwing being Mafia. With a large part of Town-base even voting for Knightwing, it'd be hard to readily back interest to the two of you, since the majority of Town easily fell-in to the line-of-thinking Knightwing might've been scum.

[webadict]

Lol, okay, maybe this really is scum Lidku, what even are you taaaaaalking about?

I feel like you're either massively misinterpreting or misconstruing my actions, intentions, or how I play scum, but you're so wrong that the quadruple down here is bad, bad, bad. Would you like me to answer anything to better defend your vote or possibly change your mind? It can only benefit you.

Your readslist is better read as the following (you can copypaste mine, that's what I usually do with Toony's)

Everyone except web/Max: Townlean
Web/Max: Scum

You do realize that NQT also voted Knightwing too, right? That means at least two Townies voted Knightwing, no matter what. So why is only Toony the one that's being manipulated by Max and I? That's a weird take.

I dunno, it just feels like you hard committed to the Max/web line because it lets you not have to really defend your vote very hard when questioned on it. Maybe you're afraid of being accused of flip-flopping (which is actually why it turns out flip-flopping is more often done by Town, fyi)? I mean, that's what it feels like to me. Am I wrong? Your vote is for literally flip-flopping and not the reason why it occurred.

[Lidku]

You do realize that NQT also voted Knightwing too, right? That means at least two Townies voted Knightwing, no matter what. So why is only Toony the one that's being manipulated by Max and I? That's a weird take.

Something I already addressed:

With a large part of Town-base even voting for Knightwing, it'd be hard to readily back interest to the two of you, since the majority of Town easily fell-in to the line-of-thinking Knightwing might've been scum.

Toony and NQT have outright voted for Knightwing, but if you look at the rest of Town's post attitudes toward Knigtwing besides myself, you'll see EVERYONE at this point suspects Knightwing due to the wagon you and Max set up. Not just "Toony" as you're trying slyly to frame it. If you took at least a few seconds to read my other post right after my readslist, you wouldn't have asked this question in the first place.

I dunno, it just feels like you hard committed to the Max/web line because it lets you not have to really defend your vote very hard when questioned on it.

Except I literally have been defending it hard, when questioned about or criticized about it multiple times? It's strange that you even say this, unless it's simply an attempt at soft misdirection.

And you have GM'd most of the Mafia games I've been in the past, webadict. You should by now that I never usually go out this strong on D1 at all. I'd only do this if something really tac'd my suspicions, which you have, webadict.

[Jim Groovester]

Ok, I actually do think Jim Groovester is scum. Because he's not really being aggressive.

:|

Is your argument really that I'm scum because I'm not being rude?

I've read Jim well before, and I know his play from the notable games archive.

:|

Your meta read is shit because it starts with 'I have a meta read on Jim'. I can't think of a recent game where I was caught because of a meta read. I got caught in Demon Mafia not because my meta was different but because Knightwing64 was scum and outted himself hard but I didn't want to make confirmed townies out of half the town so I tried to avoid suspecting Knightwing64 for as long as possible.

You also support your meta read by referencing games from TEN YEARS AGO IS THIS A JOKE

NJW, Jim hasn't shown logical-me any real scumtells, but he does bother emotional-me and I still don't know why. I'm willing to shoot him tonight if you want to coordinate shots.

:|

Everyone suspecting me has really fucking lame reasons.

webadict: I think he is a certainly a scum due his 3 minute flip-flop alone. I at first thought it could've been him and Toony, but I've shifted to Web-Max. I don't believe his claim that he dropped his "barbarian-posting" because he found that style of posting hard to do. I think he dropped it because I didn't relent on drawing a link between him and Max being on a team.

I'd read flip-flopping within three minutes as more of a town tell than a scum tell. It displays (but doesn't necessarily guarantee) genuine decision making vs calculated decision making to advance an agenda. I think you're wrong on this one.

Whenever he feels pressured, he drops his formerly jovial and light-sarcastic tone to shift suspicion off of him. Which has he has been doing all game after I made my read of him. His post activity spiked after that.

I think he dropped it because I didn't relent on drawing a link between him and Max being on a team.

You're overestimating how much you're affecting other people's behaviors.

[Lenglon]

Take it as a compliment - I figure if you are scum I won't find anything on you. Also, I want to see if NJW will put his money where his mouth is.

[Jim Groovester]

I also credit you for trying to organize a shot like I encouraged you (and everybody) to do even though I am not particularly enthusiastic about the target you have in mind.

[Lenglon]

I also credit you for trying to organize a shot like I encouraged you (and everybody) to do even though I am not particularly enthusiastic about the target you have in mind.

I admit to internally giggling about exactly this while I was proposing the shot. Your logic on the subject really is quite solid, be you town or scum. Like I said, I've got nothing on you myself, and don't really buy NJW's theory. I'm going 100% off gut instinct here. Logic is saying I should be suspecting NQT instead.

[NJW2000]

NJW, Jim hasn't shown logical-me any real scumtells, but he does bother emotional-me and I still don't know why. I'm willing to shoot him tonight if you want to coordinate shots.

Sounds good to me, let's do it.


@Jim: the meta comment is a bit cherrypicked there, although yes, I'll admit games from ten years ago aren't particularly good evidence. Nonetheless, the meta-read I have on you isn't really any more sophisticated than "Jim usually aggressive". On it's own, deviating from this wouldn't be grounds for a scumread, but in a setup where the mafia really don't want to be anyone's #1 target, it's suspect.

Besides, the fact that you haven't pressured anyone in a way that might lead to you being shot is not a meta-read, it's a fact about your play in the context of the set-up. You've only really put pressure on Lidku, and in a way that leaves me 99% sure town!Lidku shoots Toony, Web or Lenglon rather than you.

[Jim Groovester]

'Jim hasn't even tried pissing people off enough to get shot'

I don't think this is a scum tell even in the context of this game.

[ToonyMan]

Why are people suspicious of Jim? Maybe I can't read Jim well at all but I think he's town.

[ToonyMan]

Lidku is trying really hard so I appreciate that regardless if they're partners with KW or not.

Looking forward to an interesting game if KW is town.

Because this game will be an extreme wet fart like Demon Mafia otherwise.

[notquitethere]

Look, I've been wrong about this before in the past, I'm so borderline here. Someone give me a sanity check. Wuba, Jim, Anyone Else is the emotional blackmail scum!KW, or just lazy town!KW?

[Lenglon]

Why are people suspicious of Jim? Maybe I can't read Jim well at all but I think he's town.

The only people suspecting Jim atm are myself and NJW. And I will freely tell you right now that I do NOT have a good reason for it. The only actual case being pushed on him is NJW's case here.

In short, NJW believes that Town!Jim would be much more aggressive D1 than he has seen from Jim today.

[Lidku]

This is going to be my last post before I become inactive for quite a bit (job interview today).

ToonyMan, notquitethere, and NJW200: what do you think my full readslist?

[Lenglon]

Look, I've been wrong about this before in the past, I'm so borderline here. Someone give me a sanity check. Wuba, Jim, Anyone Else is the emotional blackmail scum!KW, or just lazy town!KW?

That particular tell? That specific one is lazy town!KW. I think KW is scum overall anyway however.