Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jim Groovester]

To more directly get at the point I want to make,

All your actions say that you think Knightwing64 is town, but you leave open the possibility that you think he's scum, because perhaps you know that he is scum and don't want to be caught townreading your scum buddy when he flips.

[Lenglon]

Quite frankly, I can't find anything noteworthy in the entire last several pages of posts (except for one thing that I don't feel like chatting about until tomorrow at the earliest). Everyone's positions seem settled and I haven't seen a single unexpected revelation. So I'm prepared to put KN64 at H-1 at this time. But considering his past history, and that others might still have something to get done today even though I don't, I'll hold off on placing said vote as a courtesy. But if I wake up to a KN64 hammer I do not mind.

here's a brief summary of what I'm seeing:

Lidku failing to parse Web's comments when Web speaks like Ogg do.

Jim seeing the same things as Web, who's seeing the same things as Toony, who's seeing the same things as Max, who's seeing the same things as... you get the picture.

Knightwing not bothering to anything, and making it so that even if they are town, there's no way scumhunting can progress until they're dead.

NQT / NJW standing off to the side and probing alternate possibilities from KN64 / Lidku (these two are by far the most interesting to my eyes. Not scummy, but interesting. I very much want to know what things look like through their eyes right now.)

wait a sec, what am I typing?

NJW and NQT: what do things look like through your eyes right now?

[EuchreJack]

Target spotted, ENGAGE!

(3) Knightwing64: Maximum Spin, webadict, ToonyMan
(1) Jim Groovester: NJW2000
(0) notquitethere:
(1) Maximum Spin: Knightwing64
(1) webadict: Lidku
(0) Lidku:
(0) NJW2000:
(1) ToonyMan: notquitethere
(0) Lenglon:

Not voting: Jim Groovester, Lenglon

Five (5) to Hammer
Day ends August 24th at 0600 Hours EST, approximately 25 hours 44 minutes from now.

[notquitethere]

Hope you feel better soon EJ!

Toony, yeah I get making decisions about scumminess based on the flip. That's like half my MO as town, I don't have a problem with that. But what I don't see is the compelling linkages that make these imagined teams make sense. And what I don't want to see D2 is two dead townies due to some non-existent connection. But we can examine those future arguments if and when you make them tomorrow...


In the Demon game I thought attacking KW was low hanging fruit, that he was just a newbie. However...

I blame Toony. Besides, I think I could… wait lemme check

Delightful

Have that for some scum hunting

This is giving me some a real Demon Knight Wing feeling right now. He's like, 'uh oh I better do something'. KnightWing, is your vote on Max just an OMGUS? What's the reasoning here?

[Knightwing64]

Honestly, ever since I started a new year of school, I do seem more low energy on the internet. I don’t know if it’s the increased amount of work or what, but you guys are right and I should probably work on that.


PS: I voted Max because they voted for me and I was mad. Literally, there was no higher brain processes involved,

[ToonyMan]

Knightwing, what do you think about Lidku?

[NJW2000]

Ok, I suspect there is one scum in Lidku/Knightwing, though I'm not 100%. I guess that's what I'm choosing between, so that's what people would be actually interested in hearing from me about.

I do think I've found scum outside of Lidku/KW (spoilers: it's Jim!) so big post explaining that comes in a bit, but it's not finished and people are probably waiting on me due to timezones, so I'll do this quickly now.

Lidku
Lidku... seems genuinely indignant, and not currently master of himself. It's a tunnel on Web, but I can see how it evolved. The cases he's bringing up are weak, but Lidku is a newer player than people sometimes seem to realise, and they are actual cases.
Unless he's mounting a last distch defence of scum!KW because he's desperate to keep his partner and doesn't think he can solo, I can't see scum!Lidku acting this way. It'd be a slow-motion suicide started because... Lenglon said he was disengaged? From what I can tell, Lidku's made of sterner stuff.
I think Lidku is town.

Knightwing
Knightwing is showing his usual scumtells. Lack of engagement, no real interest in what other players are doing, despairing attitude, "you'll be sorry when you elim me".
There are one or two quibbles:
 1. This is slightly more engaged and positive than the usual scum!Knightwing. Sliiiightly. Not his most recent posts though.
 2. The medic claim. He wouldn't take the initiative to fakeclaim on his own. So scum!Knightwing has a partner that would tell him to claim doc, and we have to factor in how that makes sense. Toonyman, you have experience coaching Knightwing: how much does this post look like it could be produced by someone telling KW what to do?


Out of these two, I want Knightwing elim'd. He's more likely to be scum, less use than Lidku if not, and I think a doctor isn't necessarily a crucial town asset this game given all the kills. Hopefully that makes my position clear.

[webadict]

Honestly, ever since I started a new year of school, I do seem more low energy on the internet. I don’t know if it’s the increased amount of work or what, but you guys are right and I should probably work on that.


PS: I voted Max because they voted for me and I was mad. Literally, there was no higher brain processes involved,

You know, there's a difference to me between you as scum and you as Town. I saw the Town you in BeBYOR 3, even though you were busy.

When you're scum, you forget to do the one thing that makes you easy to spot as Town: You forget to comment on the game state. You're doing it right there. I'm telling you this so you know it's why we think you're scum, and what you can do to change our mind.

You need to say things about who's scummy to you and we haven't really seen that. You need to say things about who you agree with and we haven't really seen that. Honestly, it's really that simple to me.

[webadict]

I think Lidku is probably Town if Knightwing is Town. If Knightwing is scum, then maybe Lidku is scum, but debatable.

I'm worried that not enough people find me suspicious.

[NJW2000]

Ok, I actually do think Jim Groovester is scum. Because he's not really being aggressive.

I'll explain. There's something I've been looking for for a while, especially in the more aggressive players. It's something people have already figured out: town shouldn't care too much about being shot. Losing a town player isn't a huge deal in the scheme of things, there are seven of us. But for scum, losing one player more than halves their chances of winning, and losing a bulletproof vest is nearly as bad.

The point is: how does this manifest?

If they're scared of being shot, scum aren't going to be willing to anger anyone. So aggressive, in-your-face plays, powerwolfing, controlling the town by bullying players into doing what you say - it all goes out the window. Because that gets you enemies. You can control an entire vote through sheer willpower and brutality, Jim frequently does this. But you can't avoid creating malcontents, and in this setup, they matter. Because they won't disconnect from the game, they'll just wait for the night.

So which players are showing atypically low levels of aggression, and are very unwilling to paint a target on their backs?

Not Web or Toony, they're playing the way they usually do. Not NQT or Max, they're not that domineering in general. This tell isn't exactly made to catch Lidku or KW, there's plenty of information there in any case.

This leaves Lenglon and Jim Groovester. Both have aggressive and controlling D1s. They've both been uncharacteristically placid.

 I'm not so worried about Lenglon, because they said they'd be lower energy before the game started, and besides, they still come across as not caring much about what other players think of them. Lenglon breaks rp when it'd be inconvenient to do it for a readslist and claims they'll be bringing it back when they feel like it when I thank them. So making it very clear they feel they have the right to disguise their tone as much as they like (although KW doesn't), and wouldn't stop because another player asked them to. Which is pretty staggering a strong indicator that they're not too worried about getting shot. So not Lenglon, they don't care too much about being shot.

Jim Groovester however... look at their posts. Is there anything to offend or irritate anyone? Anything aggressive?

His response to my question was very reasonable. The fact that I voted him twice while waiting for him to reply... he just noted I didn't need to do it. Nothing beyond that. This was essentially me inviting him to slap somebody. He didn't rise to it at all. Take a look:

This was not worth voting me over to remind me to answer compared to just reminding me in bold for when I get around to posting.

Zero heat in response to me doing something stupid and annoying twice.

Is this town!Jim? I think it's somebody terrified of getting shot. The person he's poked hardest is Lidku, and Lidku's made it pretty clear where they're shooting tonight if they survive.

I'm not as confident about this as I was in the Demon mafia game, but if there's scum outside Lidku/KW, I'm definitely looking here first. I've read Jim well before, and I know his play from the notable games archive.

Sidenote: if their partner happened to be a very likely D1 elim, scum would be even less likely to risk getting shot at, because even a single shot from a town player would massively reduce their chances. So I think we might be on the right track.


I assume I'm not going to get a Jim elim today, so I'm willing to focus on what other people are actually talking about for a bit, i.e. KW and Lidku. Please do give this some thought though, because I've been mulling over this about this for half of D1.

[Lenglon]

NJW, Jim hasn't shown logical-me any real scumtells, but he does bother emotional-me and I still don't know why. I'm willing to shoot him tonight if you want to coordinate shots.

[Lidku]

I can't decide if Lidku is scum or this is another example of him committing (and then doubling and tripling down) to an incorrect, off-base case.

I have a hard time balancing your opinions about all the players you think are scum for voting Knightwing64, and your actions regarding Knightwing64, and then this wishy-washy noncommittal opinion about Knightwing64 himself.

Like you've already picked out your scum team and want him to come in to defend himself but you preserve the possibility that Knightwing64 is scum?

This is something I already broached at. I don't know if Knightwing is particularly Town or Mafia, which is why I lined up my question at him. I do marginally have Knightwing64 lean as Town, because to me, something genuinely puts me at ease with how webadict flip-flopped in a span of 3 minutes toward voting for Max, to voting for Knightwing (a vote initially started by Max himself).

There is also precedent for Town!Knightwing to act strange/give-in to a dogpile vote against him when he feels like there can be no defense against it (like his self-vote in the BYOR 3 game when he felt boxed-in).

I feel like a Scum!Knightwing would have been more serious off the bat and dropped RP more readily like Lenglon did, as to at least put up some defense/detraction from Max's tag-vote against him at game start. That means I don't agree with the majority of everyone's logic that "Knight must be Mafia because he hasn't put up reads yet". A discouraged (through what I think is a coordinated wagon) Town!Knightwing does not play well under pressure.. experienced players, such as Max and Webadict would know how to express and exploit that variable.

[Lidku]

NJW, Jim hasn't shown logical-me any real scumtells, but he does bother emotional-me and I still don't know why. I'm willing to shoot him tonight if you want to coordinate shots.

You seem very liberal on who you want to shoot, Lenglon.

First you said you'd shoot my irregardless of the circumstance due to "disengagement".

When I became more engaged and asked you who'd you shoot next, you said K64 in the off-chance he somehow doesn't become the D1 lynch.

Now you're willing to coordinate a kill with NJW against Jim at a drop of a hat, because your "emotional" side?

Interesting.

[webadict]

Lidku, I don't know where to start with you, but you'll have to assume that at least four people telling you your vote reasoning is bad might be a good launch point.

Like, no one cares that you're voting me. I get it. The problem is that your rationale is flawed to a high degree.

Let's pretend that flip-flopping is a scumtell (It's not, statistical evidence shows hard committing to votes On Day 1 is far scummier, but not the point), a flip-flop between posts in three minutes shows that there was some kind of thought that went on between posts. You don't really seem to take that into consideration. I even explain it in the post that I think Max's theory is worth exploring (I originally voted Max for a fast push on Knightwing, which felt a bit scummy at first, but then had a second thought when looking back at Knightwing, so I felt there was enough merit to continue.)

If flip-flopping were a scumtell (Again, it's not, but we're pretending), then its purpose would be to look like there was progress being made somewhere, so flipping in between posts would need to make no sense, which is somewhat valid here if you think Knightwing is Town or you think Max is scum, but it sorta feels like you started at these ideas and therefore concluded the vote makes no sense instead.

But, flip-flopping isn't a bad thing, so even if that were the case, your evidence has to be that my flip-flop reasoning is scummy, not that the flip-flop is scummy.

[Lidku]

My updated reads:

NQT: Does not post often, but I get a Town-side manner from him.

NJW: Makes constructive posts and isn't afraid to deviate from wagoning

Lenglon: I don't know particularly, but slightly lean Town.

Jim Groovester: Does not post often, but when he does, makes very large analytical post-replies to things he finds interest in. Lean Town.

Knightwing: The current wagon and easy strike-down for a D1 lynch. Not definitive on whether he's particularly Town or Mafia, but I think he leans Town.

ToonyMan: I found him slightly suspicious for going along with the wagon against Knightwing, but it could be a case of him being indirectly influenced by Max and Web.

Maximum Spin: Very suspicious in his reasonings up until this point and is a skilled player. Whenever he feels pressured, he drops his formerly jovial and light-sarcastic tone to shift suspicion off of him. Which has he has been doing all game after I made my read of him. His post activity spiked after that.

I feel like a confident Town!Max would just toy and troll around with an inexperienced player like me... but he immediately off the bat is really serious and trying hard to defend himself. That makes me think Maximum Spin is Mafia even more.

webadict: I think he is a certainly a scum due his 3 minute flip-flop alone. I at first thought it could've been him and Toony, but I've shifted to Web-Max. I don't believe his claim that he dropped his "barbarian-posting" because he found that style of posting hard to do. I think he dropped it because I didn't relent on drawing a link between him and Max being on a team.

webadict in comparison to Max has been more "toyish" toward me in responses, but you can still see the line of cold-hard defensiveness toward my arguments. Like Max, I feel like a truly confident Town!webadict wouldn't go all out like this. Something is up.