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[Strongpoint]

Sorry, but no, Sean lies and twists reality. He may not know some facts but some are very common knowledge.

A simple example: in the period of 2015-2022 there was a low-intensity Russian-Ukrainian war with mutual shelling and occasional civilian deaths. In his twisted reality - Ukraine bombed its own territory just for fun and no civilians were killed by Russian forces. We have more civilian death per day than per year of that war but for moral monsters like Sean this war is an improvement of the situation and Russian Army is somehow liberating the people of Donbas by bring death and destruction which are orders of magnitude worse than what happened during the very low-intensity war.

Truth is that monsters like Sean don't really care about people. They just pretend that they do in order to justify their crimes. Destroyed Mariupol is not a tragedy for them but a reason to celebrate the "reconquest of Core Russian territory" as if it is freaking Europa Universalis and not real people. No matter how this war will end, the lives of people living in Donbas became much, much worse and this generation will never live better than they lived before February 24 2022. And many thousands won't live at all.

[andrea]

I iwll note that another reason not to exclude Sean from this forum and this thread in particular is that a lot of people from our side don't have such an easy and open channel to that viewpoint. If you live in Russia you are surrounded by it, but for people in EU or USA it is not so easy to get this kind of information (besides random comment trolls on social media). Understanding the other side of this conflict is important, no matter how much you disagree with it.

[Starver]

...I know I'm giving a lot of slack. But not for the people who matter. If Sean is a lost cause, for example, he's an insignificant pawn in the greater scheme of things. It'd be nice to show (and get, in return) a better picture of reality, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort to deprogram them.  ((But, as just ninjaed, a pet-schmuck with toothless arguments is an interesting input.

I just routinely checked tomorrow's Geohashing coordinates, BTW, and the Global Geohash is actually in Ukraine. In the middle of Kaniv Reservoir, though, just a little bit SE of Kyiv, almost directly north of Kaniv itself, so not an easy one to bag. Even without there being other things to worry about. But in case anybody is interested and aware of geohashing in the first place...

[Quarque]

DNR and LNR became nations when they declared their independence from Ukraine. They do not need to be 'recognized' by anyone in order to become nations. And yes, they will merge into Russia when they are back to their original borders, because such is the will of the people living there. Nobody in Ukraine asked the people whether they want to be in Ukraine. Nobody in Ukraine asked the people in Mariupol whether they wanted to be "defended" by the Azov. Russia, asked.

When did Russia ask?

All you're doing is spouting the regular Western public-perception bullshit, substituting terms in order to present the "right" conclusions for anyone stupid enough not to see through them. Whether or not DNR exists as a country, you're going to have to go to DNR and ask there. Whether or not there are laws in DNR, you're going to have to ask the DNR law enforcement. Whether or not the DNR militia exists, you're going to have to ask the DNR militia.

Did you go there and talk to them in person? Or maybe you live there?

I am genuinely puzzled how an intelligent person can sympathize with Putin in this war - if we can agree that it is a war? So if you don't mind, I would like to ask a few questions to get an idea where you're coming from:

How do you feel about Putin's speech in february, particularly this bit?

“Modern Ukraine was entirely and fully created by Russia, more specifically the Bolshevik, communist Russia,” Mr. Putin said. “This process began practically immediately after the 1917 revolution, and moreover Lenin and his associates did it in the sloppiest way in relation to Russia — by dividing, tearing from her pieces of her own historical territory.”

(source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukraine.html)

How do you feel about Putin staying in power for over 20 years and jailing / poisoning political opponents? Do you believe that elections have been fair?

How do you feel about Putin shutting down independent media?

How about him jailing people for the crime of calling it a war?

Do you think Putin is right to talk about denazification of Ukraine? What do you think he means with that word?
Who exactly are "nazis"?
In what way are they "nazis"? Are we talking about ultranationalism, wars of conquest, a totalitarian regime, brown shirts, antisemitism, labor camps, or something else?
What should be done with them?

[Strongpoint]

If one would hold a referendum in a pre-war Mariupol asking to cede from Ukraine to join Russia (yes\no)... I'd say, judging by the result of pro-Russian parties in the recent elections, it could be like 60% for yes with no possibility for more. That is not how the modern world work. If we start holding such referendums... the world will go into the chaos of constant redrawing of the international borders


Now Mariupol is destroyed, many are killed, and many more will hate Russia for the rest of their days. It is not like - Pre-war 60% were vaguely pro-Russian (voting for pro-Russian parties doesn't even mean that one wants to join Russia, it is often just believers of that myth of brotherly nations) and now after the city is destroyed, after mass looting, numerous cases of rapem fantastically pleasant procedure of filtration... There are no 60% anymore. Manu of those people now hate Russia with the exception of some brainwashed % with (mostly 50 years+) - It is Azov's fault. But even many of those will start hating Russia after they'll see that Russia has no intention for caring for them and rebuilding their city.


___________

As for the DPR... Lets dive in the recent history

Donetsk was the second richest region of Ukraine, it enjoyed a huge political influence over Ukrainian politics and in the year of 2010 their guy (corrupt as hell) became the president of Ukraine. That meant that Donetsk region was becoming even richer. They received a ridiculous amount of funding for hosting the European Football Championship in 2012 which further boosted their infrastructure.

Then, that scumbag of a president decided that he is ruling Russia and decided to order police to beat protestors. It didn't go well for him and he was kicked out. People of Donbas region were quite salty because their guy lost but there were no widespread separatism ideas.

Then Russia invaded the region with a group of mercenaries led by a war criminal Igor Girkin... Some of the local radicals became traitors and joined the invaders....


8 years passed. The majority of pro-Ukrainian residents fled to unoccupied Ukraine. The majority of the remaining active young people with any meaningful skills fled to Russia or Belarus to work there. All major businesses left... Tens of thousands (if not more) Russians migrated to DPR taking key roles everywhere and robbing the local population way more severely than corrupt Ukrainian politicians ever did. The region started degrading more and more

What did locals of Donetsk want for the new year 2022? Hard to say. Perhaps they wanted to live in a country with something resembling justice... Perhaps they want to bring economic prosperity back... Perhaps they got tired of the 8-year-long curfew and wanted that gone.

I am quite sure they didn't wish to be drafted and sent to die in a war. I am quite sure that they didn't want to have a serious problem with water which was coming from the unoccupied part of Ukraine (The whole region will have serious problems with water... local infrastructure, including several dams is destroyed). They didn't want to have even more Russians and North Caucasians in their home. They didn't want Russian artillery firing from within their cities and towns with the logical result of return fire. They didn't want to have prices for everything going up. No one asked them.

[Robsoie]

Some interesting fact.
The 2 regions that compose the Donbas, the Donetsk Oblast and the Luhansk Oblast

In 1991 for the referendum regarding about Ukraine declaration of independance :
Donetsk Oblast : 83.9% of yes (64% of expressed votes)
Luhansk Oblast : 83.86% of yes (68% of expressed votes)

And on the whole of Ukraine in 1991 :

55% of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine voted for independence

A week later the USSR ceased to exist.

What happened then that completely fracked up the situation, the answer is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidan_Uprising

The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.
Ukraine's parliament had overwhelmingly approved of finalizing the Agreement with the EU, while Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych and the Azarov Government.
The protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, the influence of oligarchs, abuse of power, and violation of human rights in Ukraine. Transparency International named Yanukovych as the top example of corruption in the world. The violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November caused further anger. The Euromaidan led to the 2014 Revolution of Dignity.

That lead to this :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
And then :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

Interesting readings to see how things build up to end with Russia invading Ukraine.

[EuchreJack]

I would like to see less discussion about and idle speculation of individual forum members.
Discussing others forumites can bring one dangerously close to personal attacks, which are not allowed.

Now: This IS the Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine thread. So you may very well have an emotional response to what someone else says. I know I do.
And conversations are generally a good thing.
But constant discussions about someone that posted two pages ago can lead to the sort of emotional storm that risks the thread.
So, please try to avoid that.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

[MaxTheFox]

I iwll note that another reason not to exclude Sean from this forum and this thread in particular is that a lot of people from our side don't have such an easy and open channel to that viewpoint. If you live in Russia you are surrounded by it, but for people in EU or USA it is not so easy to get this kind of information (besides random comment trolls on social media). Understanding the other side of this conflict is important, no matter how much you disagree with it.

I don't care for "understanding" the other side if they are fascists. The only thing to understand about them is how to fuck them over.

[Strongpoint]

Scholz, Macron, and Draghi are visiting Ukraine today.

I have a bad feeling about this... It does look like a team to persuade Zelensky to "seek a diplomatic solution."

[heydude6]

First Quebec passes some stupid laws, and now this. Why does it always feel like you can rely on the French to act in the most selfish way possible.

I hope Zelensky understands that Macron does not represent the entire European Union. Most people are still on Ukraine’s side.

I don’t think he’ll cave though. Russia made a massive mistake by tipping their hand early and revealing their plans for genocide. There is not a thing in the world that will make Ukraine surrender to that.

[Strongpoint]

One last thing about Sean's few posts. I divide Russian into 5 broad categories

1) Ones that openly embrace the evil.
"We will solve the Ukrainian question once and for all." "Ukrainians must be reeducated and learn their place" "Turn every Ukrainian city into Bucha!"

2) Reality-deniers who live in the world in which Russia is holy and everyone else is an enemy.
"Ukrainians are nazi and\or Western puppets."
"Russian people aren't capable of war crimes and the only reason why the war... errr... the special military operation isn't over yet only because heroic Russian army avoids civilian casualties."
"Ukraine was totally ready to attack Russia because Biden ordered them to do so!"
"West hates us for no reason and they are hypocrites who failed to notice the 8-year-long genocide of Donbas people!!!"

3) Anti-Putin 'liberals'
"I and a huge majority of Russian people have nothing to do with Putin's action."
"Why did the West impose sanctions that made my life worse?" "How dare Ukrainians hate Russians and deny that we are one nation? War is Putin's fault not ours! Looks like those hateful Ukrainians are, indeed, nazies!"
"We are victims and can do nothing to stop the war, why do you blame us?"

4) People who don't want to be Russians anymore.
"Well, my relatives went crazy. Looks like I have no relatives anymore."
"Time to flee Russia while it is still possible."
"I want nothing to do with those murderers."
"My children will be *insert nationality of the country of residence*." 

5) Russian nationalists\pariots in a good meaning of this word
"Oh... Cool. The reputation of my country is destroyed for decades and my nation is very, very ill. It is my duty to fix it. I'll probably die doing so."
"Yes, I am a Russian. Yes, I am still proud to be a Russian. Yes, I am sorry for what we are doing"
"Civil war is coming time to prepare for an active participation."
"Where do I sign up for the Freedom of Russia Legion?"



Sean is firmly in the category 2

[King Zultan]

I don't care for "understanding" the other side if they are fascists. The only thing to understand about them is how to fuck them over.

Yes yes we know you hate Nazis and what you perceive to be Nazis you've said it several thousand times now.

Why does it always feel like you can rely on the French to act in the most selfish way possible.

I've always noticed that French people were selfish and self centered.

[Strongpoint]

Spoiler: French you say? (click to show/hide)

Jokes aside, France does help with weapons. And Italy. Germany promises.

[Starver]

I've always noticed that French people were selfish and self centered.

*gallic shrug of contempt*

[Strongpoint]

“France has been alongside Ukraine since day one. We stand with the Ukrainians without ambiguity. Ukraine must resist and win,” Macron told journalists in Irpin in response to a question on his previous remarks that Russia must not be humiliated.

Who is this guy and where is the real Macron?