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[FallacyofUrist]

I feel like IcyTea and 4maskwolf's claim of being masons is dubious. To me, it looks more like IcyTea is a cult leader with a day conversion ability called Hydraform or related to such an ability. Lemme gather some more evidence of this.

Be sure to include in your evidence "why we would ever claim that on D1 when even a single dubious townie could make the whole thing unravel with the right ability."

This is WIFOM.

The day ends in like 80~ minutes. I'm writing a full-claim of my actions (I also have personal notes I've been keeping) that I will post shortly before the deadline if there's a majority on me.

I think you got the timing a bit off, matey. Try 'a day and 80 minutes'.

[ToonyMan]

I'm seriously starting to question that shit.

I only think you're telling the truth because betting half your mafia team on me is incredibly stupid. I'm so pissed either way.

So because I used a term in its most common definition, while the moderator gave a more general definition, I'm suddenly incredibly stupid?

No, I don't think you're on a mafia team. You could easily be a malicious 3rd party group, which Webadict literally just confirmed now. I don't trust your "town mason" bullshit with how stupid you and 4mask are acting this day.

I feel like IcyTea and 4maskwolf's claim of being masons is dubious. To me, it looks more like IcyTea is a cult leader with a day conversion ability called Hydraform or related to such an ability. Lemme gather some more evidence of this.

Yeah, I could believe this.

The day ends in like 80~ minutes. I'm writing a full-claim of my actions (I also have personal notes I've been keeping) that I will post shortly before the deadline if there's a majority on me.

I think you got the timing a bit off, matey. Try 'a day and 80 minutes'.

....Oh.

I read the date wrong, thanks. I had more stuff I wanted to add to my notes anyway. *breathes deeply*

[ToonyMan]

Mod Question:
Can "Leave Comment" affect a player's role or alignment enough to change what they are? Or is it purely player's leaving their thoughts on other players?

My bad, didn't see this question.

There is no answer that would accurately satisfy that question. Depending on the comment, the action could have a myriad of effects. Could it change a player's role? Perhaps, but unlikely by itself. Could it change a player's alignment? Extremely unlikely. You may leave thoughts about other players. Comments are more powerful when multiple comments target the same thing, or when a comment targets a smaller target.

Alright, good. In other words:

1. Comments can just be thoughts on other players.
2. Comments could change roles if there's enough of them.
3. Alignment shifts are extremely unlikely.

[webadict]

Mod Question:
Can "Leave Comment" affect a player's role or alignment enough to change what they are? Or is it purely player's leaving their thoughts on other players?

My bad, didn't see this question.

There is no answer that would accurately satisfy that question. Depending on the comment, the action could have a myriad of effects. Could it change a player's role? Perhaps, but unlikely by itself. Could it change a player's alignment? Extremely unlikely. You may leave thoughts about other players. Comments are more powerful when multiple comments target the same thing, or when a comment targets a smaller target.

Alright, good. In other words:

1. Comments can just be thoughts on other players.
2. Comments could change roles if there's enough of them.
3. Alignment shifts are extremely unlikely.

1. They could. It'd have a minor effect on them depending on what the comment said.
2. Quite. Role-changing would require a significant number of Comments.
3. Extremely. Not only would it take a large number of Comments, but you'd like need a number of strongly-worded Comments.

[4maskwolf]

I feel like IcyTea and 4maskwolf's claim of being masons is dubious. To me, it looks more like IcyTea is a cult leader with a day conversion ability called Hydraform or related to such an ability. Lemme gather some more evidence of this.

Be sure to include in your evidence "why we would ever claim that on D1 when even a single dubious townie could make the whole thing unravel with the right ability."

This is WIFOM.

Have you, by chance, read through Choose Your Own Masquerade?  It's a pretty good example of why even the most thoroughly convincing scum gambits are never, ever a good idea, especially in a role madness game.  Because no matter how clever you think you are, how convincing you think your ruse is, all it takes is a single townie to doubt your honesty and the whole thing can fall apart around you.  I backed up a truck over the rest of my scumteam, hijacked the town and railroaded it down a path to my victory, and used the downright broken mechanics of that game to become basically an unkillable demigod, and I still lost because a single townie doubted me and had the right abilities to get to me.  One single townie, out of all those who were fooled or just so cowed they didn't bother to speak up.

And now you're telling me that, under no pressure, we choose to go for an all-or-nothing gambit where the cult claims masons, in a game that's confirmed to have a mafia team (who are interested in killing both town masons and hidden cultists) and just trusting that we're somehow invincible to any grumpy scum or curious/distrusting townie who takes a poke around at, oh I don't know.

1. Our lives.
2. Our alignment.
3. Our role names.
4. Our ability names.

And so on, for the entire length of the game, without ever arousing suspicion that there might be a cult growing within the town.

It's an interesting take, I'll give you that.

[IcyTea31]

No, I don't think you're on a mafia team. You could easily be a malicious 3rd party group, which Webadict literally just confirmed now. I don't trust your "town mason" bullshit with how stupid you and 4mask are acting this day.

I feel like IcyTea and 4maskwolf's claim of being masons is dubious. To me, it looks more like IcyTea is a cult leader with a day conversion ability called Hydraform or related to such an ability. Lemme gather some more evidence of this.

Let's build that world.

4 mafiosi (confirmed by mod)
1 third-party (that's Tric)
1 day-recruiting cult leader
10 townies

After D1 and N1, presuming mislynch, successful conversion and successful mafiakill, we're at 7 town and 7 non-town. And there's even a claimed townie with an alternate third-party wincon (that's dolores).

Is this a sensible world?

[FallacyofUrist]

Point A:

I no longer think your "slip" was actually a scum slip, and that's why I voted you.  I don't have any substantive reasons to suspect you any more.

Scans well enough, and I'm starting to realize what it is you've been doing. It's a pretty outdated technique, but still town. Unvote

Lets go of the Toaster case with scarcely any detail about why. (The case was dubious to begin with, and as mentioned, reactionary, voting Toaster for being inquisitive about IcyTea).

Point B:

PFP

We were saving this in case Icy’s early game shenanigans got him in too much hot water, but since the wagons have moved on we’ve agreed to claim D1 to prevent WIFOM.

Icy tea and I are masons.

I can believe the existence of town masons, but the timing here is suspicious. Soon after I start pushing for an IcyTea lynch, maskwolf claims the masonry thing. It feels like a defensive measure intended to get heat off IcyTea.


Point C:

I am indeed in a masonry with 4maskwolf.

We're confirmed town to each other, have a secret chat, and are immune to alignment conversion.

Being immune to alignment conversion seems less likely on town than on non-town.


Point D, and the biggest one:

You said Luckyowl wasn't right about one of your abilities being named "Hydraform" right? Hydra sounds pretty mason-y to me with the multiple heads.

I don't have an ability by that name. To me it looks like Luckyowl copied one of my abilities, and webadict changed its name before giving it to LO. I can agree there's a logical connection in calling a mason ability "Hydraform", but I'm not the one who decided to call it that. LO already asked for clarification on this, so we'll be waiting for that.

This is flat BS. As I mentioned earlier, LuckyOwl's action had nothing to do with copying your ability, as they themselves stated. Rather, it grafted LO's own ability onto an ability in both Tric and IcyTea's roles, and as far as I can tell, told LO the name of the ability grafted onto as a side effect. As mentioned in my previous case post, you've been incredibly defensive about Hydraform. Feels like the action of a cult leader not wanting to get snuffed out before they can ramp up and expand.

[FallacyofUrist]

Let's build that world.

4 mafiosi (confirmed by mod)
1 third-party (that's Tric)
1 day-recruiting cult leader
10 townies

After D1 and N1, presuming mislynch, successful conversion and successful mafiakill, we're at 7 town and 7 non-town. And there's even a claimed townie with an alternate third-party wincon (that's dolores).

Is this a sensible world?

Of course not. Nothing about this game is sensible. We're all aware of that. For all we know, the spectators can join the game as players, or you can recruit the mafia and create some sort of funky joint win condition. Every player breaks the game slightly, moderately, or extremely. I don't think it's fair to model the game based on sensibility when we've already thrown that out the window.

[4maskwolf]

Point B:

PFP

We were saving this in case Icy’s early game shenanigans got him in too much hot water, but since the wagons have moved on we’ve agreed to claim D1 to prevent WIFOM.

Icy tea and I are masons.

I can believe the existence of town masons, but the timing here is suspicious. Soon after I start pushing for an IcyTea lynch, maskwolf claims the masonry thing. It feels like a defensive measure intended to get heat off IcyTea.

You're way overvaluing your own importance to our decision making process, I'm afraid.  You're one vote, nobody else was convinced to hop aboard, and we didn't even discuss you or your vote in our masonchat at any point.

[FallacyofUrist]

I hope you don't mind if I give you and IcyTea fries tonight, then.

[4maskwolf]

I hope you don't mind if I give you and IcyTea fries tonight, then.

Sure.  We expected to draw actions when we claimed.

[Leafsnail]

I'm happy to believe the mason claim provisionally. Obviously it could be a scum gambit but it would be an extremely risky one - even if town completely believed it scum masons could get massively blown out by a third-party killing role such as an SK.

fakedit: a daycult fakeclaiming masons would be outright suicide rather than merely risky, because they'd be painting huge targets on themselves for the mafia.

This case against ToonyMan doesn't make sense to me. What you're touting as a "slip" seems to me like an overly pedantic reading of TM's posts. To me the P2 exchange can be broken down to this:

NJW: How do you know heydude actually received a contract PM at the time specified?
TM: Because ICT claimed he received a PM at the same time and I don't think both of them are mafia together [and therefore lying to cover for each other]

To me it seems like you're just reading "In my opinion, this makes it incredibly unlikely they're on the same team." in isolation and attacking that, rather than trying to understand what that line means given the context of the rest of the post. With this in mind I think it makes sense as a clarification of P1.

I feel similarly about your objection to P3 - TM is spelling out the scenarios where heydude can be scum, and due to their weirdness discarding them as unlikely.

TM does leave out some steps which makes his posts unclear but I can follow the overall chain of logic.

[FallacyofUrist]

[b=Current Reads List]
Town: Dolores, Vector, Leafsnail, LuckyOwl
Scum: Jim Groovester
People of Interest (people I have opinions on, but not strongly one way or another): heydude, IcyTea, FallacyOfUrist, ToonyMan
Neutral: Everyone else
[/b]

I do find it interesting that 4maskwolf didn't put IcyTea in his Town list when he posted his reads list, prior to the mason claim.

[4maskwolf]

[b=Current Reads List]
Town: Dolores, Vector, Leafsnail, LuckyOwl
Scum: Jim Groovester
People of Interest (people I have opinions on, but not strongly one way or another): heydude, IcyTea, FallacyOfUrist, ToonyMan
Neutral: Everyone else
[/b]

I do find it interesting that 4maskwolf didn't put IcyTea in his Town list when he posted his reads list, prior to the mason claim.

You're right, I didn't.  Because then I would have to explain why I thought he was town without revealing we were masons and at the time he was being a literally ball of spaz in-thread.

[Toaster]

Warning - while you were typing 16 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.




I find it very believable that IcyTea and 4mask are on the same team.  Which team... my gut's trying to tell me that we have two mafia teams here.


Webadict:

There are four Mafia players. Lynching a Jester would not end the game unless Shenanigans. You can get a Lurkertrack in a bit.

Are the four Mafia players on the same team?






LuckyOwl:

LuckyOwl:  Did you kill and eat IronyOwl?  I keep getting confused.

If you killed and ate a player N1 and could blindly swap into their alignment, would you?

Yes, this was an RVS question.  Yes, it's way past the point an answer is relevant.  Yes, I'm being obstinate.  I still want a bloody answer.

Also, did you ever find anyone you actually suspect?  Why do you suspect said person?


FallacyOfUrist:

Fallacy:  Do you think running around threatening people with your big scary fries got you positive results?

You're still doing it.  Are you getting anything out of it?  At this point you should be able to provide examples.



TricMagic:

Vote Count
------------------------
 
TricMagic - Leafsnail*, ToonyMan*, Vector*, Jim Groovester*, Toaster*,


9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 29, 2020 at 19:00 CST (~50 hours from now).

Eh, can at least die knowing that list of people are the most sus to ever be suspected.

And yeah, me being town is a laugh isn't it heydude. At least my death would give information on flip. Some of these have to be scum I feel.

So which ones is it?  Why them specificially?



4maskwolf:

4maskwolf:  Could I get your current reads of Jim and Fallacy, please?

Still gonna need this.

I know. I’m PFP at work so I’m stuck on real-time posting atm, don’t have the time to give them a solid read through till I’m home.

Got your time yet?  It's been a few hours.




That's the main post where people are missing what I'm asking for, but I still want to do some more digging.