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Author Topic: BYOR 15: Game Over - Mafia Win (Kinda?)  (Read 115102 times)

IcyTea31

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #300 on: December 26, 2020, 12:09:32 am »

PPE: hey ICT where's the longform case on heydude6, you fucking nerd?
That'll be once I have the energy. Problem is, I'm not allowed to talk about the thing that first pointed me to that case.
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Vector

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #301 on: December 26, 2020, 12:15:39 am »

It's 7 in the morning and I've officially played Mafia all night.

go to sleep


Vector
So you do believe in the legitimacy of that slip, and do think that ICT is more likely than the average to be non-town. How do you feel about Jim's case on him, such as it is? How would you feel about players who go after ICT primarily over that slip?

I think that the case for ICT is more or less isomorphic to the case for FallacyofUrist. Both have been doing something like stalling and acting random (seemingly) for the sake of randomness. Anyway -- I think that Jim's case is credible for ICT, by Day 1 standards.

As far as the slip goes, I've seen this kind of thing both reveal the scumteam and offer an excuse for scum to bandwagon. If we lynched ICT today, and I were alive in a couple of days, I expect that I would examine anyone with a last-minute bandwagon over the slip later.


PPE: I want to see the longform cases when they are ready as well. Although to be clear, I am aware that it's still (at least here) Christmas. Merry Christmas to those indulging.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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FallacyofUrist

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #302 on: December 26, 2020, 12:39:55 am »

4maskwolf:
Speaking of people who don't get passes.

FallacyOfUrist, I'm genuinely unclear on how you manage to post so much while doing so little.  You've spent the entire game waxing poetic about french fries and spazzing your vote between between people so frequently I'd ask if it wasn't a post restriction, but I don't think it is because your second post has no vote change in it.  What are you hoping to accomplish this D1?
I'm hoping to kick over the hornet's nest and pick up the pieces afterwards. If I get stung a bit in the process, so be it.

heydude6:
Mafia has always been a game about pitting an informed minority against an uninformed majority. During my time with secret H, I've noticed that scum can use this advantage to manufacture a strong narrative that a bumbling town can either latch on to or at least be confused by. I stress this point here, because there is a lot more mafia this time due to how many more players we have. I expect the count to range from 3-5 depending on the amount of third-parties present.

What this means though is that they have much more room to coordinate amongst themselves and construct a stronger narrative. I won't tell the scum how I plan to protect myself from that, but I want the less experienced players to think hard about what that means. I'm pretty sure this old news for the veterans, but I want the intermediates to know the answer to the following question:

In a game of mafia where the town is doing badly, who is more likely to know what's going on and lead the town to victory:

The group of 4 people?

or

The group of 2 people?

Spoiler: Additionally (click to show/hide)
I'll be honest, I find this question set really interesting. Just for the sake of hypothetical, imma assume a vanilla sort of setup. No fancy schmancy stuff like what we have in this game. The thing is with the town, 'confirming' another player as a member of the town, either via role abilities or deduction, can be kinda hard to do. Furthermore, mutual confirmation, which is much more useful, is far more difficult. This is why the Mason role is so potent and often comes in pairs.

The group of two people is much more likely to form as a town core simply because the more people are added to a group, the harder it is to confirm people. I'd like to find one or two town players that I can really trust, then work together with them to figure out who the mafia are.

Because finding town is just as important as finding scum. There are always going to be super-scummy players, players who seem really trustworthy, and the neutral ones. But if I figure out who's most likely to be town, I know who I don't have to worry about stabbing me in the back.

(Problem is that since I'm not psychic, it's entirely possible that I could read you as super-duper town, and find out you're a serial killer on the loose only after the game ends.)

Extenuating circumstances wise, it really comes down to role abilities and exceptional circumstances that can lead to more people grouping up. In a really big setup, I could see a four-person mason group working, for example.

But what do you want to learn as a result of asking this question?

Jimbot:
I reread a bunch of games recently and a pattern I noticed is that as the day goes on (and on) players tend to reevaluate their suspicions and this results in several distinct bandwagons forming as the day goes on. With 120 hour days I'd say it's likely that there'll be two or three bandwagons form over the course of the day.
Well, we appear to have firsthand evidence of that now...

Have a cookie.

No fries, though. Not yet, at least. Fries are for enemies or people I'm suspicious of, and I don't know if I suspect you yet.

notquitethere:
Just a general disclaimer: my playstyle doesn't start really rolling until D2 (though please dont nk me tonight)
I recall from previous games that you do a lot of voting analysis based on past days. Stuff like seeing who a scum player voted for after their death and comparing that to their posts, or reviewing cases made by dead town. How useful do you think that'll be this game?


Note: I want to look more into ToonyMan. Something about his post didn't seem quite right to me.


Direction and Magnitude:

But regardless, I believe that Fallacy of Urist does know better, and I feel right now that his behavior is the most anti-town overall. Lurking is one thing, fluttering all over the place stirring the mud is in my opinion a more solid tell: it is actively, rather than passively, anti-town.
Okay, imma respectfully disagree with you here. Am I acting absolutely nonsensically? Yes! Of course! But it's nonsense with a purpose. I honestly believe that passive behavior is more anti-town than useless active behavior, because you can't read passive behavior. Lurking is incredibly anti-town because you minimize how much other people can judge and read you, and while I won't fault people for it during this holiday season, I'll definitely be more firm about poking lurkers come Day 2. By throwing out all my garbage, I'm getting people to talk to me, about me, and I'm giving them the opportunity to judge me. I've kicked the hornet's nest. And if I get stung, so be it. Do I want that to happen? Of course not. It's not like if you strike me down I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine or anything. But it's a risk I'm willing to take in order to draw everyone out.

Which seems to be working quite well.


Jim again:
You ask restrictions, when you should be asking freedoms.

I really don't have the patience for 120 hours of this.

Guys, please, help me hammer IcyTea31.
No, fuck you. We lynch people because they're scummy, not because they're just plain bad. If you can give me a reason you think the tea is evil? Sure. Otherwise? Fries for the fast food god. Ketchup for the arched throne.


dolores:
FallacyofUrist
IcyTea31, just for the sakes of making there be three votes on someone instead of two and making people react.
What a great post, really finds the scum.
What happened to your case on Vector? I know you switched to NJW for, and I quote,
NJW2000 for no reason whatsoever.
But aren't you going to, I dunno, grill ICT if he's who you're pushing on now?
Not if I have an actual case now. Which I might. I'm not sure yet. But I'm thinking about it. Brain meats churning.


The Lucky Owl:
Whew that's a lot of text to read from. I feel like some of these text gives scummy vibe. Almost like you're trying to hide something among these jargon. Maybe that's just the meta here.

For the vets who don't know me. I'm a new player who got two mafia games under my belt. Paranormal 26, and Bastard paranormal 3. In both of them I have committed blunders. However in my first one, Paranormal 26, I was able to recover from my blunder and be some sort of use to my townie. My second one unfortunately caused me my death when I forgot I had a space suit and asked Jim for one. So I expect to collect third blunder here. On what? But I'm sure excited to see what I'll trip on next.

With that out of the way.Because IcyTea31 opened with that really cool overly confidence self-voting.  I'm going to say IcyTea31 is townie and is the only I trust so far.
Hi, new player! Welcome to mafia!

FRIES FOR THE FAST FOOD GOD. KETCHUP FOR THE ARCHED THRONE.

If you think the tea is townie, why do you think they voted themselves instead of using their vote randomly to try and poke people?

dolores:
I don't think that FoU isn't scum, but I also doubt that his commitment to not contributing anything to the game is the scummiest thing we'll see all day unless it becomes super obvious and undeniable.
Shuuuuush. Be patiiiiieeeeeent. Imma working on it, jeez.

That person who just replaced in:
FoU:

Quote
[2] I would complain about your insults, but honestly you're completely right. I'm terrible at mafia daygaming and if you really were in games with me, you'd know that. I rely on the night game and cunning gambits to get anything done. Half the time that fails completely too, though.

I'll take this and run with it. You're bad with the day game, but are good with the night game.

Hypothetical: Everyone was really boring and picked low on the shenanagain scale, giving us a mostly vanilla game. Your role gets you a double action, and every night you have both a protect and a roleblock. You live to use it successfully each night, without being blocked, redirected, etc. 16 players, so we'll say there are two nightkillers.
What chances do you give yourself of successfully blocking a bad role on each of the first three nights, and protecting a townie?
How do you choose your targets, with your self-admittedly terrible day game?
Well, uh. I choose one player to keep safe and one player to stop from doing everything every night. Thing is, there's more hostile actions than just night kills. Stopping kills on townies is the most important thing, but secondarily stopping any action performed by an anti-town player would be nice. So I should be looser with the roleblock, because it only costs town one action if it misses (town commits much more actions than the mafia) and costs one mafia action if it hits (mafia doesn't have many actions to spare to begin with). As for protection, I need to choose the most valuable / obviously town player. Something like a mayor or whatever.

But is this really a useful question?

Actually no.

RVS is already over, as someone else said a while back. It's an interesting question, but it doesn't actually... gain you much, you know? Why not just.. ask something related to the current wagons?

That said, it's understandable since you just replaced in anyways.

I've got my eye on you anyways, though.

And... post.
I will be handing out fries tonight or tomorrow. You do not want fries, trust me.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

heydude6

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #303 on: December 26, 2020, 12:48:39 am »

I'm currently writing a response to Nirur Torir. That will take a while, but the paraphrased PM is something I can write very quickly. Vector can confirm the accuracy of the paraphrasal

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If it isn't obvious to you already, I lied about some of the details in order to see if I could bait someone into calling my bluff. Do you really think Web's PM would cite the username of the person who targeted me? Also, I made some of the abilities sound more powerful than they actually are in order to add to the obvious fakeness.

And it worked beautifully! Either scum!Iceytea made up a lie in order to get the votes off of him and onto me, or the scum targeted Iceytea since I mentioned his name in the "PM" in order to manufacture the situation we are currently in. The scum response was a bit more clever than I hoped (it's hard to tell which of the two previous scenarios is the right one), but I still think we've gained something useful from this. At the very least, we burned one of scum's abilities.

I will give you a paraphrase of the real PM now

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

dolores

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #304 on: December 26, 2020, 12:58:58 am »

pfp (actually, I'm just leaving in a moment but it's like, a spiritual phone)
sounds super fake to me
2. precludes 3. in the 'real' form because they can see what the ability they get is
posting 'fake' stuff then editing it out on purpose is mega lamer
webadict is better at writing roles than that
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heydude6

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - We're Just Getting Started
« Reply #305 on: December 26, 2020, 01:13:38 am »

pfp (actually, I'm just leaving in a moment but it's like, a spiritual phone)
sounds super fake to me
2. precludes 3. in the 'real' form because they can see what the ability they get is
posting 'fake' stuff then editing it out on purpose is mega lamer
webadict is better at writing roles than that

Then what do you think of the fact that Iceytea was targeted? What do you think of the fact that I had to edit it out?

Quote
2. precludes 3. in the 'real' form because they can see what the ability they get is

I don't have to give away my starting abilities. I plan on paying off the contract by giving away "Leave a comment". Giving away a useless ability is much better for me than giving them my role name (plus the name of a useless ability), because mine happens to give them a pretty good idea of what I can do.



PPE: hey ICT where's the longform case on heydude6, you fucking nerd?
That'll be once I have the energy. Problem is, I'm not allowed to talk about the thing that first pointed me to that case.
heydude6: Was going in the short answer bin with the mechanical fluff earlier, but I've been hit by an ability. The ability doesn't seem like the kind that double-targets, so I'm going to say it's heydude6 himself who's behind it. Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one. To be fair, it's outguessing to say that a killing ability won't double-target, but since it's "voluntary" I'm not entirely certain.

Clearly you can say a couple of things about the effects of the ability that targeted you. What exactly can't you talk about?
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

IcyTea31

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #306 on: December 26, 2020, 04:53:34 am »

Vector can confirm the accuracy of the paraphrasal
If that's true, you're both scum, because what you paraphrase after that is not what was in the removed post.

Quote
Do you really think Web's PM would cite the username of the person who targeted me?
Not misspelled, but yes, it believably could, and you admit you changed it "a bit".

Quote
And it worked beautifully!
What was your actual plan here, from start to finish?

Quote
Either scum!Iceytea made up a lie in order to get the votes off of him and onto me, or the scum targeted Iceytea since I mentioned his name in the "PM" in order to manufacture the situation we are currently in.

Could you help me put these scenarios on a timeline? I don't think either of them has sensible motivations.

town!heydude contracted. -> town!heydude posts removed message. Town!heydude has no way of knowing who sent it, so puts "Iceytea" in the modified message because...? -> scum!icytea lies and claims to be the target of it, rather than just calling it fake, because...? This somehow moves votes off him despite putting even more attention on him?

town!heydude contracted -> town!heydude posts removed message, puts "Iceytea" in the modified message because...? -> scum decides to perform another use of the same ability on the same day (a rare ability), targeting town!icytea, because they want to confuse town?

Here's what I'd propose instead:
scum!heydude uses the ability on town!icytea -> scum!heydude posts removed message, naming the target to either force a confrontation with them or to "prove" innocence, because town!icytea is seemingly lynchable right now.

Then what do you think of the fact that Iceytea was targeted?
How do you know that this is a fact? Hell, if you think I'm scum, wouldn't this be one thing I'd definitely lie about, because I wouldn't target myself?

Quote
Clearly you can say a couple of things about the effects of the ability that targeted you. What exactly can't you talk about?
For one: I have to be roundabout about the specifics of a particular post, as that post contained a rules infraction. For two: there happens to be a particular name of an evil creature which is highly harmful (damning, in fact!) to the speaker if spoken aloud, especially three times in a short span of time. Looks like you were able to do that, though?



pfp (actually, I'm just leaving in a moment but it's like, a spiritual phone)
sounds super fake to me
2. precludes 3. in the 'real' form because they can see what the ability they get is
posting 'fake' stuff then editing it out on purpose is mega lamer
webadict is better at writing roles than that
Nah, the second spoiler is correct in how the contract works.
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heydude6

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #307 on: December 26, 2020, 07:57:47 am »

Finally finished the response to Nirur. A lot has happened since I did, so I'm sure some things are going to be a bit quaint. Really, I recommend reading my second post first.



Heydude:
Quote
In a game of mafia where the town is doing badly, who is more likely to know what's going on and lead the town to victory:
[-snip-]
None of them. If they knew what was going on, town wouldn't be losing.

I counter with personal experience. I knew who the scum were in one game and nobody listened to me and chose to listen to the scum instead. I die, we lose, I'm proven to be right on in the aftermath. This was Secret Hitler btw, and it definitely happens a lot in Among Us too. Do you think this anecdote is worthless?

Quote
notquitethere. I usually do something stupid when I get enough [pressure]. Thankfully, real pressure only tends to develop when people act in a way that attracts it. I like to think that I've been a good townie so far.
Do you feel that townie goals are to minimize pressure?
You haven't done much hunting. How have you been a good townie so far?
Pressure on someone you know is a townie (like myself) is a waste since that pressure can be better spent on someone who's alignment is in question.

For the second part. I don't Lurk, I don't make "nothing" posts (until that PM debacle at least). I have successfully provoked responses from Jim, 4maskwolf (which you found useful), the guy who targeted me with the day action, Iceytea and Dolores. I have also criticized Fallacy's and Iceytea's plays.

I haven't been afraid to expose myself to potential scrutiny in the name of finding the truth.

FAKEDIT: I wrote this section before Iceytea revealed his alleged attack and blamed me for it. So it's funny that I'm getting pressure now.

Quote
As part of common sense, townies shouldn't join a bandwagon unless they fully understand and agree with the reasoning for the lynch.
Duely noted: Scum need only say "I agree with points 1, 2, and 7" before joining a bandwagon, and all is well.
How do you tell the lazy from the scum?
A good question that's tricky to answer. If the logic is flawed enough, they look like an idiot for agreeing to it. You'd be surprised by how many scum are lazy though. Let's take a case study:

Spoiler: The Case (click to show/hide)

Pretty damn stupid and lazy, don't you think? Clearly reeks of a desperation move done just to get the lynch off of him. Hypothetically, if Iceytea gets lynched and is revealed to be town (let's not ponder a third party reveal for the moment), how does that reflect on Fallacy? He's already done many scummy things and was the runner-up for the lynch, so it just makes the case against him stronger.

But, I'm going to turn this around for a moment. There's a joke I once heard that said the bay12 mafia meta was so advanced that people who act scummy are just town making slip-ups and the people who seem town are just scum playing the game very well. Though this reeks of the "Too Towny Fallacy", it undeniably has an influence on how we play. Dolores thinks Fallacy of Urist is not scum for this reason. Though I'm not ready to exonerate him yet, I must admit that town does make mistakes (sometimes a lot of them) and have personally seen them get lynched for it, so I do have some doubts. But who doesn't in mafia?

I want to compare Fallacy of Urist to another person who is voting for Iceytea, Jim Groovester.

Spoiler: The Case (click to show/hide)

Jim is obviously acting anti-town and playing badly, while giving weak justifications for his vote. He also has a reputation for being an incredibly competent player. The "mistake" here appears less genuine than Fallacy's. At least that's how I feel, though it's possible they're both scum. I have much fewer doubts for Jim. A lone vote is rather useless though, so I'd rather keep it on a scummy player who will actually get lynched (If I leave Fallacy, I will break the tie and get Iceytea lynched instead, though maybe I might want that based on how this whole situation turns out)

To sum up the response to your question in one sentence, you need to know how to tell the difference between fake laziness and real laziness. No one method will give you a definitive scum read (unless you get a lucky night game). It's always about lynching who you think is most suspicious and hoping to get lucky.


Quote
I disagree with everything you said:
  • In a game like mafia, words are actions.
  • Mafia is too logical for something as emotional as a gambling metaphor.
  • Walls of text are annoying, but they put you in the spotlight, which is not something scum like to do. In the games I played in, the scum meta often involved keeping their presence minimal and letting the town tear itself apart, though the veterans here might not play that way.

I let this pass cause you're a newbie.
Do you have any questions for Owl after fully disagreeing with their game philosophy, or are you going to give them a pass and ignore them?
I have seen 3 players (Iceytea, Fallacy of Urist, and Jim Groovester) make obviously bad plays that draw unnecessary ire towards them for seemingly little reason. Trying to understand them has given me a headache though I feel closest to understanding Iceytea's motivations. When I see a newbie do this, it makes a lot more sense than when the pros do it. I can rationalize it! I would rather spend my effort investigating the pros than the newbie. Lynching proscum is more valuable than lynching noobscum.

I don't like how Luckyowl doubled down though. Newcomers should be eager to learn the game and take feedback from the experts earnestly, not reject it as if they are afraid that admitting a mistake is the same as admitting they are scum. One dumb post is easy to forgive, but as more are made you have to start looking into it more.


Because "Dolores is Most Certainly Town" is valuable information:
Counter for times Dolores has claimed to be town: 5

I am confused by the context of this. I assume you meant to reply to someone, but I'm confused to who.



I need to write a response to Dolores' big megapost too.

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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

heydude6

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #308 on: December 26, 2020, 07:59:21 am »

I was finishing up my response to Dolores' mega-post when Iceytea made his post. There is an excerpt from there that I want everyone to see though. It is my core defense that I have been writing before Iceytea made his recent post and it also coincidentally addresses many of the questions he has asked. Due to its age it has a bit of a more aggressive tone, but I still think it's necessary to read.

Spoiler: The Excerpt (click to show/hide)

Here's what I have to say about the questions it doesn't answer though.

Vector can confirm the accuracy of the paraphrasal
If that's true, you're both scum, because what you paraphrase after that is not what was in the removed post.
What can I say except that you're wrong? I still have a copy of the original infringing post since I sent it to web to have it judged after-the-fact. I compared the two again for you and can say that the meaning is the same. I removed most of the formatting and changed the wording because it was too similar to the original, but the same ideas are still being expressed even if it at a glance seems different.


Quote
Do you really think Web's PM would cite the username of the person who targeted me?
Not misspelled, but yes, it believably could, and you admit you changed it "a bit".
You answer this question by ignoring its context. This is a malicious ability that was sent against a person who had not really done anything very scummy at the time. If I got their username, then this would out the sender as a confirmed mafia and I would do everything in my power to convince the rest of the town to lynch them. Webadict would never design such an ability and if he did, that person wouldn't risk sending it to someone like me. All it would take is a town flip, and everyone would know that I was telling the truth about being the target of this ability, as well as the user who sent it. Such a badly designed ability would clearly look fake. Especially in hindsight.

Can you write a response that addresses the context this time?


Quote
Either scum!Iceytea made up a lie in order to get the votes off of him and onto me, or the scum targeted Iceytea since I mentioned his name in the "PM" in order to manufacture the situation we are currently in.

I gave you a timeline in the excerpt, but I want to tell you why I used your name in the fake PM. I believed using a username would make the PM look like an obvious fake for the reason I outlined in my previous response to your previous question. I also believed that the mafia were going to attack my PM for being fake, and try to convince others that it wasn't a double-bluff. I would wait for the attack, point out the trick and defend myself, making the attackers look bad.

I needed to choose a name though. The reason why I chose yours was because I believed it was the most likely one to provoke a reaction from the mafia. You are the person the town finds most suspicious alongside Fallacy of Urist. I saw two scenarios happening here. If you were innocent, the mafia would attack me and claim that I was trying to frame a suspicious person with a bullshit lie, with the expectation that you would join the attack. If you were scum, you and your buddies would do everything they could to discredit me. Either way, I was going to get a reaction from the mafia and I wanted to see the usernames of the people who would do it.

Unfortunately, though I did get a mafia reaction eventually (which I am proud of), it wasn't through a post but through an anonymous day action, leaving you as the only person to attack me and be read. Figuring out your alignment was never part of the original plan, and I doubt I'll get enough from you here to make a final opinion, but I'll still call your actions as I see them.

Then what do you think of the fact that Iceytea was targeted?
How do you know that this is a fact? Hell, if you think I'm scum, wouldn't this be one thing I'd definitely lie about, because I wouldn't target myself?
I don't know this for a fact obviously. But a part of me still thinks you're being played by the mafia.

I answered the way I did because Dolores made an argument for why I faked the PM, and thus why I'm scum. But if I was scum, then that means you were targeted for real, so their argument needed to account for that. I assumed they at least had an idea of where you fit into their narrative and I wanted to know what it was. If I'm going to defend myself, I should at least fully know what I'm defending against.

Justifying my decision to attack you has been the biggest hole in any argument for me being scum, as I mentioned in the excerpt. If I faked the PM to make myself look like a townie, then why did I throw all that away to attack you? If I wanted to get you lynched, there were easier and less risky ways to do it.


Quote
Clearly you can say a couple of things about the effects of the ability that targeted you. What exactly can't you talk about?
For one: I have to be roundabout about the specifics of a particular post, as that post contained a rules infraction. For two: there happens to be a particular name of an evil creature which is highly harmful (damning, in fact!) to the speaker if spoken aloud, especially three times in a short span of time. Looks like you were able to do that, though?
This is the part I find the most suspicious. When you say particular post, you mean my edited one, but you dance around it with unnecessary euphemisms. I don't even see what was so important about it since only exact details are missing in the paraphrase.

Yes, I can say beelzebub without getting harmed. Did the mafia make you afraid it? It's a rather unimportant word so I'm sure you can describe what happened to you without mentioning it. In my response to your next question below, I mentioned that it seems like you got a contract, but if that's the case, I recommend you to pay it off so we can have a proper discussion. You got the contract before the scum were informed about the "Comments Available" loophole so use it.


pfp (actually, I'm just leaving in a moment but it's like, a spiritual phone)
sounds super fake to me
2. precludes 3. in the 'real' form because they can see what the ability they get is
posting 'fake' stuff then editing it out on purpose is mega lamer
webadict is better at writing roles than that
Nah, the second spoiler is correct in how the contract works.

How would you know? I never showed the original contract in the infringing PM. Did you get a contract too? In that case are the terms the same?

I still find it strange that two contracts have been sent though. Usually you can only use an ability once per phase, but I wouldn't put it past the mafia to coordinate something funky.



My full Dolores response for whoever wants it.

Spoiler: Dolores (click to show/hide)
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

4maskwolf

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #309 on: December 26, 2020, 08:52:30 am »

dolores: His first post just came across as odd to me, is all.  I'm afraid I don't have a big dissertation on why he's scum or anything (or at least not one that's easily stateable), I just got bad vibes off the first post.  I had a similar thought about Toony but his later posts were better in my eyes and left him at neutral.

FallacyOfUrist and IcyTea: Something for future games, but even if you go into some reaction-fishing gambit again the important things are to be subtle and be quick about it.  The more obvious it is the more people will just roll their eyes and give NAI reactions and the longer it takes the more it just muddies the waters and obscures any actual clues that may have fallen out.  Also, deliberately bad play makes people check out when it's shoved in their face constantly.

Nirur Torir: Trust can rarely be given unconditionally by the town, you're right, and barring mechanical clears or similar you can never let someone remain fully static on your trust list.  But by keeping a revolving list of people you trust, at least enough to work with them, and actively scumhunting and analyzing to keep scum off the list you can position yourself as part of a power bloc opposed to the scum.  Because the scum have the power of information and planning, and a strong scumteam can and will use it to try and divide the town: after all, it's much easier to persuade three people to mislynch someone than five, and the more divided the town is the fewer players you need to sway to get your ML.

[b=Current Reads List]
Town: Dolores, Vector, Leafsnail, LuckyOwl
Scum: Jim Groovester
People of Interest (people I have opinions on, but not strongly one way or another): heydude, IcyTea, FallacyOfUrist, ToonyMan
Neutral: Everyone else
[/b]

4maskwolf

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #310 on: December 26, 2020, 08:53:15 am »

I am smart and good with computers and know how to make spoiler tags, I swear.

IcyTea31

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #311 on: December 26, 2020, 09:00:02 am »

What was the purpose of scum!me pretending to receive a pm from webadict? To confirm that I'm town? Why would I create such an elaborate lie and risk getting it discovered when nobody really suspected me?
You do know it's one thing to not be suspected for the moment, and another to be believed to be town?

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Why would I risk receiving the potentially ruinous wrath of webadict?
Because you didn't know about that risk.
The rules only said not to quote. I didn't quote, but damn...

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Why would I then attack Iceytea with a day action, when he already was the runner-up for getting lynched?
To ensure that lynch, because it's far from guaranteed at this point, or perhaps to protect the top wagon.

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If !Scum me wanted to get rid of him, I could have easily come up with a simple justification to move my vote away from Fallacy and towards Iceytea. That would break the Tie and put Icey next in line to be lynched, even if he removed his self vote.
And would also put heat on you for lynching a townie with only a "simple justification".

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If I did decide this was the best way to get rid of Iceytea, why did I use a method where successfully defending myself sheds no light on the guilt of Iceytea since his outburst could easily be rationalized as the mafia targeting him in order to make me look bad?
Because I received my message around the same time you said you did, meaning your message couldn't have affected the action. Or if we're both town, it would require scum to spend two separate actions. And a single player generally doesn't perform more than one action per phase, and if they do, not the same action.

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It's like this plan is incredibly high risk, for only minimal reward!
Lynching town isn't a major reward?

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to provoke a reaction from the scum who sent it.
What sort of reaction were you expecting?

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There was an unintended consequence of the PM debacle though. It gave town!Heydude's claim of being maliciously targeted more legitimacy, creating Scum's worst enemy: The confirmed towny.
Actually, scum!heydude would have got into the same debacle; quoting one of your own actions is still quoting a mod PM.

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It sure is strange that their immediate instinct is to assume I sent it when doing so would put !scumHeydude in a lot of unnecessary danger.
That's because abilities that can kill generally don't double-target. That I was targeted reduces the odds of another claim being true. Combine that with naming me specifically in the post, before town!you could have known I was targeted.

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Anyway, of those two scenarios which do you think makes more sense?
As noted, I know for a fact that if you really were targeted, it was a single double-target action and not two actions, one made in reaction to your post.

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What can I say except that you're wrong? I still have a copy of the original infringing post since I sent it to web to have it judged after-the-fact. I compared the two again for you and can say that the meaning is the same.
Much of the meaning, yes, but the original post mentioned my name thrice, while the new version only does so twice. Specifically, the third part of the ability was different.

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Do you really think Web's PM would cite the username of the person who targeted me?
Not misspelled, but yes, it believably could, and you admit you changed it "a bit".
You answer this question by ignoring its context. This is a malicious ability that was sent against a person who had not really done anything very scummy at the time. If I got their username, then this would out the sender as a confirmed mafia and I would do everything in my power to convince the rest of the town to lynch them. Webadict would never design such an ability and if he did, that person wouldn't risk sending it to someone like me. All it would take is a town flip, and everyone would know that I was telling the truth about being the target of this ability, as well as the user who sent it. Such a badly designed ability would clearly look fake. Especially in hindsight.

Can you write a response that addresses the context this time?
I was going reaffirm that yes, one of wuba's PMs could believably cite an attacker by name, because it's happened before, but I went back and it actually happened in one of Fallacy's games, not wuba's. I suppose it's unlikely, but it's dangerous to say "would never design".

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Unfortunately, though I did get a mafia reaction eventually (which I am proud of), it wasn't through a post but through an anonymous day action, leaving you as the only person to attack me and be read.
Saying once more because it's important: this didn't happen. I received my PM before you made that post, and only a couple minutes after time you said you received it.

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Justifying my decision to attack you has been the biggest hole in any argument for me being scum, as I mentioned in the excerpt. If I faked the PM to make myself look like a townie, then why did I throw all that away to attack you? If I wanted to get you lynched, there were easier and less risky ways to do it.
Yeah, I'm just going to Unvote at this point. You're clearly not thinking with a scum mindset, and wouldn't have come up with what I suggested as the enemy strategy (at least not alone).

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This is the part I find the most suspicious. When you say particular post, you mean my edited one, but you dance around it with unnecessary euphemisms. I don't even see what was so important about it since only exact details are missing in the paraphrase.
I asked wuba, and talking about it too clearly would toe the line of using information gained through a rules infraction.

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Yes, I can say beelzebub without getting harmed. Did the mafia make you afraid it? It's a rather unimportant word so I'm sure you can describe what happened to you without mentioning it.
This game was designed by wuba. Abilities can reference things posted publicly, and role names are particularly strong candidates for such words, doubly so for words often associated with such things in other media. And of course the player with such a role name themselves would be immune to it, but I don't think that's the case anymore.

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In my response to your next question below, I mentioned that it seems like you got a contract, but if that's the case, I recommend you to pay it off so we can have a proper discussion.
How do you know whether or not I've already done so? Why is a proper discussion contingent on it?

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How would you know? I never showed the original contract in the infringing PM. Did you get a contract too? In that case are the terms the same?
I know because I received it with those terms, yes.

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I still find it strange that two contracts have been sent though. Usually you can only use an ability once per phase, but I wouldn't put it past the mafia to coordinate something funky.
I'm more concerned that it seems to be a double-targeting killing ability. I think the sender is more likely an SK than mafia, actually.
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dolores

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #312 on: December 26, 2020, 09:16:08 am »

Obviously I have a lot else I need to respond to other than this but
Yeah, I'm just going to Unvote at this point. You're clearly not thinking with a scum mindset, and wouldn't have come up with what I suggested as the enemy strategy (at least not alone).
What? Can you elaborate on this?

On a personal, out of the game meta note, fuck whoever is involved in enabling post-edits (at least webadict, also anyone who's role submission contributes to such). It was a shitty gimmick every time it was tried before and it's never worked, and if you're someone that should know better, you should feel ashamed of yourself. "Editing out offending posts" is literally the same as just enabling both those posts and editing, and there's no way you didn't know that. Why am I expected to save a copy of every post in the game every minute?
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webadict

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #313 on: December 26, 2020, 09:37:50 am »

I will clarify that post editting is not an ability I will add ever. You are not expected to save posts. Any post that is editted was done so because it infringes on a rule. If it was not done with my permission, it is itself a rules infringement. If you see anyone editting a post, you may notify me of it because that is cheating.
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IcyTea31

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Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« Reply #314 on: December 26, 2020, 10:06:27 am »

What? Can you elaborate on this?
After going through heydude's arguments, I've concluded that he is honest in not understanding why scum would make the moves I suggested they might have. He simply hasn't thought enough about how scum might play in this particular situation to realistically have created the plan I thought scum might be using. For instance, look at these questions:
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What was the purpose of scum!me pretending to receive a pm from webadict? To confirm that I'm town? Why would I create such an elaborate lie and risk getting it discovered when nobody really suspected me?
Scum!heydude playing at the level of "hide from the townies" not at the level of "trick the town into mislynching and become town core in one fell swoop".
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Why would I risk receiving the potentially ruinous wrath of webadict?
The time confusion in this question implies all the other questions were made after the fact, and that the message itself was spontaneous and not entirely thought through. Indeed, something one might do when they receive a scary PM.


So now I've moved to the theory of there being a double-daykilling SK, which I do consider a possible role, especially since it can't necessarily nightkill.
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