Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mightymushroom]

So. This is where I'm at. My key words above, in case they didn't seem like it to you – all of you, this is an open letter –are "in a hurry."

I had reached a point in my posting where voting IcyTea seemed the right, and natural, thing to do. An idea that needed testing, some pressure that ought to be applied. It didn't have to represent my final vote with this much time stretched out in front of us. It should be a good vote, though. I reiterate that my hypothesis is one that I wanted to actively explore at the time. Nothing in IcyTea's and Tricmagic's combined N2 reports is unassailably demonstrative except that RGU almost certainly didn't go anywhere last night.

As I continued to review it in my head, however, I got around to widening the scope to include the ramifications in regard to randomgenericusername. And suspecting an RGU-IcyTea team necessarily means the lynch of Spin yesterday was a bus; there is unlikely a cop report against Spin; I am now on the hook for proposing a sensible alternative version for N1 events as well as N2. This, more than the N2 claims, is where the position begins to break down. Sure there are plenty of holes in my N1 knowledge, but that only means that the logic structures become more and more airy as I try to build them, less and less grounded. As well, disbelieving the cop claim means the scum had two varieties of framing power and only a one-shot cop investigation claimed so far against them: overkill. This is not the direction I should be headed at this stage of the game.

So. Now I believe that I was misled by my original impulse and have moved away from the specific scenario that I outlined earlier. If IcyTea reached a similar point of trust regarding RGU sooner than I did it would explain much of the indignation that I could say such things. It doesn't explain why the counter vote against myself was accompanied by inflated mischaracterization of my position, but that might be simple crossed wires.

I don't expect this letter to lift the vote against me (plural if they've accumulated while I was thinking and writing). That would be foolish if you believe I'm scummy – I know a couple player's lists earlier implied as much – and hypocritical of me to demand after explaining how long it took me to change my mind. But one of my frustrations is when a player changes public positions with little or no explanation, now you have mine.

Unvote IcyTea31.
Not voting someone else because bedtime soon.

(Technically not a PPE but I composed offline and didn't see RGU's most recent post until after.)
I'm aware that IcyTea may not be perfectly unsuspicious; but in that case I don't see a good argument that says the block was scum motivated and we properly ought to be voting the killer who is definitely scum.

A real PPE this time @Starver:
IcyTea claims to have blocked you N1 (and simultaneously protected). The action target of my Delay was TricMagic.

[Starver]

Okay, still messed it up, but not so it needs another try.

Assumptions:
N1: I was jailed by Icy. Tric was Delayed in Inspecting me by MM. BHK/RGUN claims to have Copped Max (correctly IDed as Scum). Not entirely sure what Hector or Juice did, or if Max worked a communal Scumshot, but BlueTurtle (as flipped) couldn't have acted.

N2: Hector is up in the air, as is Juice. Not sure if anybody knows anything about my N2 except for the announced delayed Towniness (if you trust Tric). BlueTurtle oughtn't to have shot themselves (unless Redirected?), RGUN noted as immobile by Tric. Don't appear to have info regarding MM for N2, which must be my error.

Any fine-tuning there? I've just rushed back to the top end, aware that I've been AWOL for almost 24 hours (prepping, IRL, for a busy weekend when I can't guarantee devoting time to this, but will be back before close-of-game-day).

PPE @MM: I think I got that, but may have got mixed up in rush to compose a 'useful' message, as seen from my inability to compose a properly tagged message. It is almost 5am, and all, and I'm living in skewed hours at the moment.

[IcyTea31]

I wouldn't need Starver to be lying? I just need him to be (I presume genuinely in this scenario) roleblocked N1. This establishes that the power exists.
Then you could hypothetically kill N2 while RGU sits still and vouches your alibi.

You give me too much credit. I'm not really the sort of player to go for gambits like that.

And I still don't see how I'm supposed to clear TM because of that detail.

Let me be more clear about that: I dismiss the lead because it's dry. TM isn't clear, and our information of the night is incomplete. RGU isn't clear either, for that matter, but they both have plausible stories.

4 posts while typing, so more to come.

[IcyTea31]

So. Now I believe that I was misled by my original impulse and have moved away from the specific scenario that I outlined earlier. If IcyTea reached a similar point of trust regarding RGU sooner than I did it would explain much of the indignation that I could say such things. It doesn't explain why the counter vote against myself was accompanied by inflated mischaracterization of my position, but that might be simple crossed wires.

I don't expect this letter to lift the vote against me (plural if they've accumulated while I was thinking and writing). That would be foolish if you believe I'm scummy – I know a couple player's lists earlier implied as much – and hypocritical of me to demand after explaining how long it took me to change my mind. But one of my frustrations is when a player changes public positions with little or no explanation, now you have mine.

The reason I accused you of bad faith was that you were casting doubt on my claim by (in my eyes) misrepresenting my words, presenting less likely scenarios in "suspicion" and presenting the same argument as I as if to cast doubt on it. Purposeful intellectual dishonesty is a scumtell, but it's hard to say whether it was accidental and/or emotional. Lacking other evidence, I'll Unvote for now and look elsewhere.

N1: Tric was Delayed in Inspecting me by MM.
N2: RGUN noted as immobile by Tric.

Other way around. They claim to have been delayed in tracking RGU on N1, and to have inspected you N2.

N2: Hector is up in the air, as is Juice. Don't appear to have info regarding MM for N2, which must be my error.

I'd like this info as well. Hector?

[Starver]

N1: Tric was Delayed in Inspecting me by MM.
N2: RGUN noted as immobile by Tric.

Other way around. They claim to have been delayed in tracking RGU on N1, and to have inspected you N2.

My notes¹ have it that Tric thought they ought to have some knowledge about me N1 (I thought they were my Blocker, until claimed something investigative that was later changed to something else investigative[/i]), but were delayed. That it was (accidentally, apparently) a Cop/Alignment-Inspection on a 1-shot basis that (by N2) revealed me as Town. That the actual one-shot tracker skill was used N2 on RGU (with the information that they did not move).

(I saw Tric N2, but that sounds consistent with the (mutual) Delay on the action. RGU claimed a result on Max N1 and how that would fit with a N1 Tracker on them, through the prism of a Delay, returning no movement is somewhat subject to the way our noble mod works out the interaxpctions.)

I could be wrong. I'm not sure I have the time right this moment to scan through 40ish pages to find the source quotes. If you can quote the otherness (tampking into account the noted error)

From an external POV, though, I can see how bad faith in some or all of these claims could invalidate the whole web. The obvious counter-claims are obvious, but I don't want to give anybody any ideas. We could first try to get more claims (or abstentions from doing so) and cut down on opportunistic shuffling around behind Cat In A Box fake-claims.

¹ Which I won't be taking with me when I leave home in a few hours, however much I'm able to pop back online! Fair warning that I'm not going to so handily back up things until some time Monday before Day end but with a gap.

[IcyTea31]

My notes¹ have it that Tric thought they ought to have some knowledge about me N1 (I thought they were my Blocker)

I presume you're referring to this post:

I also might have an idea Starver.

You'll notice I contested it, implying that they'd know for sure if they actually had blocked you:

'Might'? If you think you got through past all that inscrutably sesquipedalian verbiage and could clear Starver, why be so unsure?

I then later tried to furtively give you the connection in this post, though I think I was too subtle:

I'm not ready to give a full claim yet. However, I believe (if I've read the thread right) that there is someone who knows what my action was, and is thus able to clear me if needed.

[Starver]

As we saw it turn out, Tric wasn't the person I was expecting to respnd "by lots of circumstantial knowledge", but does atill have a valid claim (give or take an error in what was tried¹) if MM is believable.

Alas, not only was your clue subtle enough to look like a Hectarian description of me at the time, once I'd cleared up the false hope and identified your claim (at that time presumed to include MM's effect upon Tric, what with the coincident connection) it was also a little possible that you'd seen my initial clue to claim, so I didn't immediatel leap upon it.

On balance, though, I'm willing to believe Tric's check (at one point, I suspected it a feint, and it still could be, working round my soft-claim to try to get a reversible alibi, and maybe in league with - say - scum-blocker RGU... but that's at the complicated end of things given then I'd have to believe you are a non-blocking scum in a complicated coordinayed scheme to confuse things), which seems less scummy than it has done (Owlman-JOAT, especially as we've already seen a multiprovision scumlike bite the dust, seems less likely. And if I'm disregarding the alliance with RGU then actions (if not simmering intent, wot we know not wot of) of N2 points to being about right for the claimed Odd-Cop.

Doesn't rule out the RGU/Max claims-by-opposition, but points to a non-RGU partner being BlueTurtle's killer if it comes to that. (And also likely not killed by MM or yourself without either being an additional swiss-knife Scum, which is a likelihood I'm downgrading.)

MM as Delayer function (give or take other functions, with caveat as noted) seems to ride on Tric being right.  The alternative is that Tric faked the so-called-delayed visit on me last night to support fellow-scum MM's claim for N1 and knew enough (personally or perhaps via a suitably investigative scum-mate - who could be MM, but unlikely) to easily claim the block on RGU.

I'm classing you as likely Town. And Scum-Jailkeeper is likely Town. Tric-as-Scum is either darned lucky or deserves loads of credit for supporting this multiway deception, so on balance I heavily come down on Tric-as-Town. RGU is balancing more Town (still the possibility of coordination with Max and then playing the even night 'straight' enough) and I don't want to jeapordise their D4 existence by going too far into what I'd do next, best to let that go without my guidance.

Leaving Hector and Juice.

Hector is aloof, and I've shied away from prodding there so far because of the low variation of response between Scum and Town I know I would get. Hence going after lower-hanging fruit. Meta-wise, could be excluded from Scumminess on the basis that Max was flipped Scum (ignoring Death-Miller or Ultimate-Framer (with a 'Death Mask' of the actual Framer left on the corpse), as likely far too Bastard), but I still can't entirely rule out Fallacy's 'balancing' having both experienced mentors on thr Scummy side just to balance one really experienced Townie...    Anyway, I've yet anything to openly say about Hector except for what I haven't got for them.

Juice, with idleness (not the only one!) bordering upon near-replacement is differently inscrutible. Cued up only by the above generalisations, I'd FoS: Juicebox, but there are too many caveats in the above to be sure.


And that's just what I say. I can.easily construct various alibi-inventing combinations in the above data with the assumption that I am lying about one or other thing. I'm perfectly entitled to yet be revealed to be BlueTurtle's executioner, if Tric is (as I put it another time) "Bad or Mad", the latter including assistance a Max-counterpart of maybe Tailor-Doctor (protects and de-Scums a person's image, especially useful if I'd invited investigation, which I may well have done - whether for this reason or my own), as those with any imagination doubtless already are considering.

But the facts as I know them are largely there, and just one more fact by/of anyone here could tie down a loose end or tie up in a brightly-coloured bow at least one lie already told...


¹ A problem, but if Tric has merely played the part of being a bit clumsy with the role of Batman-JOAT², then all credit to them or their guiding mentor, as it doesn't seem not to fit. Underhanded compliment as that may be if it isn't the case.

² By prior use of the term by others. Noting that a Batman Gunsmith is straining canon, but no mkre than canon has with the occasional utilitarian cannon aboard his Batmobile!

[hector13]

N2 I didn’t act.

FoU: how would you describe your interpretation of how a jaikeeper works? Would the protect only stop kills, or all actions targeting the jailed player?

[IcyTea31]

According to my role PM and subsequent questions to clarify, the action protects the target from all kills on the same night and blocks them. It does nothing else.

[IcyTea31]

As an aside, I can't self-target and the message the target receives simply says they have been blocked, not that they have been jailed.

[randomgenericusername]

Alright, I haven't been able to pay a lot of attention to this game since I have been recently busy with other things. If this continues, I might need to request a replacement later. I don't really know what else to comment on, other than that I find the Starver-IcyTea situation a bit strange.

[FallacyofUrist]

FoU: how would you describe your interpretation of how a jaikeeper works? Would the protect only stop kills, or all actions targeting the jailed player?

My interpretation of a vanilla jailkeeper is stopping only kills. Though admittedly a Mostly Vanilla role could stop all actions targeting the jailed player instead.

[hector13]

So...

N2 actions I can be bothered to remember:

hector: nuffin'
Tric: Watched RGU, RGU did not act because...
IcyTea: blocked RGU
RGU: blocked
MM: ?
Starver: ? (allegedly town from Tric's N1 investigation)
juicebox: ?

mightmushroom bothers me more than juicebox.

[TricMagic]

Edit that hector. My investigation into Starver was delayed, and triggered night 2.

Also,Vote hector.

For all that you said I should push.. Also, why does a silent juice not bother you?

[hector13]

It bothers me less than mightymushroom does, actually.