Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10

Author Topic: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"  (Read 8644 times)

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2017, 03:11:38 pm »

But it makes a huge hassle for the average designer who just wants to make one design, and not 5, or more if we add more design groups... Basically nobody can submit a single design until someone has submitted a complete design plan, and even then they need to figure out which specific design they want to replace, when they may well be unwilling to replace any of the designeds of the appropriate size, so then they need to submit an extra design to replace the role of the design that they want to replace except suited to a different design team. It is a massive hassle to a game which is already having difficulty getting participation. I mean, just look at how long it takes to get a production plan most turns...
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2017, 03:13:44 pm »

I don't mean an all-inclusive plan (Necessarily), I mean you propose a set of designs, but you don't really care/know enough about production to propose a plan for factories, so someone else proposes a plan for production.

And eighty million other plans are proposed, and some of them are hybridizations or adaptations, but a person could easily read through them and go "Hey look, this plan has a defined goal and does what is necessary in my opinion. I'm voting for it." instead of what we have now, which looks like (A lot of the time) "Let's get this. And this sounds good. Hey, look at that!" and then we have no goal or direction...which isn't such an issue now, but as we get further in we're going to want that direction in designing new things.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2017, 03:15:21 pm »

 Then the GM gets to go "Alright, these things won, but 3/4 of them contradict eachother inthat they require the same teams to do stuff in each one." Its not worth the hassle.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2017, 03:18:38 pm »

Wait what?

I don't understand how that happens when every plan, if you choose to propose one, has to use the teams properly.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2017, 03:21:38 pm »

You had just said that you did not need all-inclusive plans, and I game an example on why that's a bad plan if you are going for plans as opposed to individual suggestions filling allotted spaces.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2017, 03:26:28 pm »

No, the idea was that a plan is proposed for research, as opposed to a plan needing to include industry, work force, and government functions as well.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2017, 05:19:22 pm »

Ase was just referring to pure design plans. Mad is just referring to pure deign plans. I suspect that Mad thinks that people are complaining about plans that simultaneously cover designs, production, and extras. While Ase thought that Mad was suggesting that people could propose partial plans that only cover a couple of designs, but Mad is actually insisting that all design plans use all design slots?

If a plan gets the sizes wrong and does small(s), s, s, medium(m), large(l). then the whole plan is invalid. If it were individual designs then they would just choose two of them and skip over the invalid design. So plans have a problem in that if there is a flaw, then the whole thing fails rather than a much more easily-handled single-design flaw.

And I think that it would make it worse for voters too. Instead of tracking a single design and its merits. You need to track a series of designs and their individual merits simultaneously and compare it to the combined value of another series of designs. The more things that you have to consider at once the more complex it is. Not to mention that it means that you spend proportionally more time referencing, because there are more things that need to be held in memory at once. ?Also it is likely to be less descriptive because the plans would rather not list the full list of items with their full names for every variation on the plan, and with a broader scope people are more likely to take issue with one part and propose an alternative.

 And then there is the issue that, assuming that the extra workload doesn't scare people away from making proposals, there would likely be far more proposals to look through. There are likely only two or three close-quarters weapons in a design phase. Maybe with a couple of variant proposals?  Lets say that you have three close weapons, three medium personnel weapons, three antitanks guns, and three aeroplanes. That is 12 proposals. If each of these is a plan, then we can have one of each and one extra, such as tow antitank guns or two medium weapons. Then we can have a plan for each combination. assuming one of each it is at a potential aaaa, aaab, aaac, aaba... 81 proposals, just because everyone has their favourite weapon in each category. Then we have a1A1x, aa1Ay, aa1Az, aa1Bx... a11Ax... a1AAx... and I am not inclined to calculate the totals but it is rather huge. Now, granted, not all of these proposals will be made, but the potential mess of plans when it ends up being a multiple choice with a dozen elements is immense. When each entry is a unique element, then it is more difficult to spam minor variations than it is when you can just slot out one design for another...

Also, I am a little dubious about whether 2.2 is really a variation and not a new design. The extremely pathetic round is sort of a consistent element of its design. It is based around the theory of having very low recoil and being very light, and having a long firing time. I am not actually complaining, I am happy to just leave things as they are, but I was finding it a bit awkward to just not mention anything when it seems that the outcome would be rather opposite as far as the submachinegun scale goes. I certainly believe that 2.2 could work, indeed, it is a safer bet than the basic 2, even if the 2 would be awesome if it works, it is just that 2.2 is about having a solid gun for close quarters, and 2 basic is about taking away the soldier's hesitation to fire, and as such they have fundamentally different design specifications. Still, as I said, things are cool as they are, I have no issues with 2.2 as it stands, I just tend to overanalyse these sorts of things and then feel bad if I don't say anything.
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

3_14159

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2017, 12:22:20 pm »

In my opinion, we could probably combine advantages of both styles of voting by doing the following:
a) Design proposals are ordered by size.
b) Everybody has one vote per design team (at the moment, 2xS, 2xM, 1xL). The latter would force Asea to drop two small votes.

This should make what to vote for clearer, keep all choices easy to implement for 10ebbor10, and allow everybody to easily vote for a quasi-plan. Only question is how to order plans; for now, I'm keeping the same index.

Let me also vote for 2.2 (M23 SMG), 6 (M23 Grenade), M23 75mm mortar, 11 (Mule Redesign). I'm still thinking about a good large project.

For traits, I'm voting for Cheap, Camouflaged, Comm Network, and Well-Supplied for the bunker and cheap for the cannon.


With that, here's the reordered tracker:

Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
Logged

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2017, 01:13:55 pm »

 I think the mule is a bit of a waste of time working on it at this point. Its horribly broken, mayaswell work on a new design to do the job.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2017, 01:15:12 pm »

?

No, it's better to FIX it, because that's easier than making a new one, by far.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2017, 01:18:38 pm »

 Is it more work to replace it than to try to fix the horrific mess? At the state where the Mule is, I am of the view where fixing it is actually more work.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2017, 01:25:36 pm »

It's always easier to work from a given design and known problems than to make a new design and then find the new problems.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2017, 02:23:13 pm »

I see zero reason to put a machine gun on a scouting byplane. It won't do any strafing runs, neither it will dogfight. Why increase its cost?
Logged
They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

NAV

  • Bay Watcher
  • I have an idea!
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2017, 02:35:50 pm »

Strong point there, Strongpoint. Sorry I'm sure you've heard that one before.
Machinegun shouldn't be on the scout plain.
Logged
Highmax…dead, flesh torn from him, though his skill with the sword was unmatched…military…Nearly destroyed .. Rhunorah... dead... Mastahcheese returns...dead. Gaul...alive, still locked in combat. NAV...Alive, drinking booze....
The face on the toaster does not look like one of mercy.

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2017, 02:52:23 pm »

Well, it won't happen, as the machinegun is dependent on a vote that's not happening.

The machinegun is because minor strafing runs ARE a thing, and because if the enemy turns out to have some form of armed aircraft it won't hurt to be prepared. That said, since it's specifically stated to depend on the timed machinegun system, it won't happen and we don't need to worry about it. That said, the generic machinegun improvements would be very good to get, guys.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10