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[TolyK]

Holy crap, there's a bit that unfolded just now and I don't feel like I can unfold it for myself yet, so...


Extend if possible, because I really really need to finish one thing tonight.


Quick post on some of the things directed at me, though. I'm sure I missed some while redoing but ugh. I'll reread and re-READ everyone if possible, but I guess an extension won't go through? We seem to be short.


Lenglon:

TolyK - please st least FoS your hypothedical vote target. I get it, you plan on not voting for literally all day, but I still want your hypothedical vote.

Tiruin has triggered my scumdar, and I wanted to see her behavior after that point. If you want a tl;dr: I feel she's responsible for the Survival mode scum helper thing, for <reasons>. She doesn't seem to have posted much, so unfortunately it's been hard for me to confirm my suspicions... There's one post which I've saved, but that's not much.

There's also FoU who's basically had a half-assed attempt at pressuring me (note: which I called out after he stopped pressing), but I haven't paid too much attention to the rest of his posts as of yet.

I'm totally fine with lynching Flabort as he's been demonstrably useless (active-lurking) and I haven't gotten anything else pinned down as well as others have.


Persus13:

TolyK:

... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.

Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!

I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?

Why are you acting so freaked about that? Why are you confused why no one's talking about it? The only known benefactors are the Mafia. No one has claimed it, and Lenglon has explicitly stated its not from her. As doll and TBF pointed out, asking what Survival mode is pointless, since it was likely a scum player, unless a town player who hasn't posted recently did it.

I'm more confused about why you put made an outburst about this, because it feels super forced, especially since my impressions of your posts tend to be fairly reasoned with mild positive emotion.

Well, I did just wake up.
Jokes aside, this was the thing that struck me immediately - nobody was talking about survival mode. It seems strange to me that there is no reference of any "mode" in someone else's role. Also, my thoughts went to it possibly being a town move: you get some bonus, with the drawback that scum get a free action (basically). Maybe it was indeed an overreaction, as there has been no more information on it, but we didn't even get any attempts to get information on it!

I would agree that I usually am pretty reasoned, mostly because I play with regards to mechanics more than reading people (of course, I do both, but more biased towards mechanics than other people...). What I should've done at the end of that was ask this:

Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?

The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...


PPE: wow lots of posts, as usual, while writing

TDS? I think hes asleep at the keyboard. he is a void where a player should be. he is the gap in presence that has fallen below the lynchline (aka TBF) simply through lack of existing.
hes not posted enough of signifigance.

TDS has gone to meet his maker. He... is an ex-player!

[TheBiggerFish]

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?

Notice me senpai.

I thought I had answered your questions.

[Pozzai]

TDS has gone to meet his maker. He... is an ex-player!

  He might be pining for the fields, wonderful plumage though!

[TheBiggerFish]

@Tiruin: That post was mostly a joke.  Although I now realize it was not a very good one.

[TheDarkStar]

I'll do this in pieces, as I have time.

TDS: Can you speak more to your Persus and 4mask reads?

...4mask read? I haven't made one yet.
That said, his contributions so far: this post where he pressures flabort (amid a sea of people voting for flabort), this post (and similar ones) where he gets after Pozzai for not following Bay12 meta... and pretty much everything else is from RVS. He has other posts, but none of them have much content. I'm leaning scum because of his lack of strong scumhunting and possibly scum third party because of his low activity.

Persus: In this post he tries to move away from RVS quickly by asking fairly aggressive questions. A while later (after a bit of followup/other stuff) he continues being passive-aggressive here. It's basically a null-tell - yes, he's pressuring people, but on the other hand he's not voting and seems noncommittal. And then there's this post, where the most notable thing is his vote on TolyK. This is a very strange vote, because TolyK is pointing out the fact that no one is discussing the Survival Mode thing and Persus finds it scummy. My question is why it would be scummy to point that out, since scum have no motivation to discuss something like that if they caused it but town would be motivated to discuss it and try to figure out who caused it. At the very least, it's not something that makes sense to vote over. And then Persus doesn't really have much else. Overall, I get a mild scummy feeling from Persus - he does have some posts with substance but even with that he's not putting much pressure on anyone.

[FallacyofUrist]

@Fallacy

Can you walk me through your thoughts on Tolyk throughout the day?

What actions made you see him as one way or the other and how did that change?

Alright, that's a start.

Jack:

Do you want to do a (literally harmless, in terms of actions) experiment, Jack?

TolyK: Let's hear it, if it is still relevant.

Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).

This was the start of my read on TolyK as a cult leader variant. One that can convert during the day, but isn't mandatory for whoever he converts.

Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?

I'm obviously biased, so 0%.
[2] If I want to give a real answer, though... pretty slim? It'd be a definite gambit to just publicly say who I'd invite and ask them whether they want to join. After all, isn't the point of a cult the fact that alignment changes? I guess you could make a point for trying to not recruit scum or some special conditions for the cult recruiting, but other than that I don't see a point in giving additional information I could've quite easily withheld, were I a cult leader...

TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?

Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.

[1] Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.

[1]: TolyK: Abstractly, how would you go about doing this to only me?
[1]: If TolyK's thing proves to me that he's not a cult leader, I'll... well, maybe. TolyK is seeming a little passive. Might not unvote after all.

[2]: A gambit, sure. But if he wants to make himself look like town... also, I'd think it more likely that somebody'd accept an offer that comes with some warning than one that comes out of nowhere.

Re: Experiment:
[1] So, I made a chat thingie with Jack. Unfortunately, it turns out that the experiment I planned won't work out with him, so that's called off for a bit.
We did divulge some information to each other, though, and at least on my end it seems to check out.

Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/ability/true name--which may happen while reading this sentence--would you mention it in public?

I have yet to determine my all-powerful true name.  I have considered hinting at part of my convoluted role name, though.  I will say this in public for now: I'm a modified version of WWI's worst rifle.  The time is neither strategically right nor comedically well timed for a name reveal.  Are you satisfied with this response?

This is what Jack told me in the chatty chat. He told me more, obviously, but that'll do for now. Of course, if he's lying he's just being consistent, but...
He feels like he's being honest at least about his role, which he has partially revealed, and it's consistent with that I've expected of this game.

[2] To continue the experiment, though... is there anyone who thinks they have a useless day action? I.e. one they'd think about not using?

[1]: And now, as expected if he was a cult leader, the proof is called off.
[2]: I have no idea how this would be relevant aside for town. Maybe role shenanigans. For cult leader, however, every bit of information helps.

These ninjas.
~~~
Now, the above is the evidence for cult leader. But what about for scum in general?

... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.

Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!

I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?

This would make sense if you replace the words "Survival mode" with "fusing". But as you can see, TolyK turns attention to something we have a public explanation for. Le active lurk. Or, content devoid. I'm posting! Look at me! What's survival mode?

Lenglon:
[!2]Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, [!] I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).

[!]: Potentially valid, but also potentially cover for not having suspicions. TolyK: When do you plan on posting your reads? Today? Day 2? Nevermore?

[!2]: Bah. Use the vote! As town, it's one of your greatest weapons! Vote whoever you think is most suspicious! If you're not willing to vote who you think is most suspicious, vote the most suspicious person you're willing to vote! Pressure breeds action and information! A vote is nothing unused!
Passivity!

I said above in this post that I'm actually kind of annoyed at you not pushing this. And here you are, saying everyone is null or town-ish except me, who is third party-y. Why are you not engaging me or at least asking questions, if I'm the only one acting strange?

Well, I'm pushing it now.

To answer you: time constraints.
~~~
After looking through the whole of TolyK's posts, I am seeing no scum hunting. Zilch. Plenty of talk, but no focused attacks on people. Maybe you can correct me on this?

That, and the threat of a cult leader, is why I am voting TolyK.

Ninjas. Stop stealing my thunder, dangit.

Well, one of them is the TolyK himself, anyhow.
~~~

There's also FoU who's basically had a half-assed attempt at pressuring me (note: which I called out after he stopped pressing), but I haven't paid too much attention to the rest of his posts as of yet.

You'll notice I've started pressing your case now.

Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?

The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...

Nope. Nada. Game modes aren't a thing with me.
Also, from the look of things, game modes are a scum mechanic. From what's publicly known, Survival only benefits the mafia. Do you have reason to think otherwise?
~~~
Also, TolyK: are you capable of voting?
Gah, ninjas.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Tiruin: Why do I miss questions: A combination of "I don't know how to answer that right now, I should think about it and come back to it later" and then suddenly pageroll/post-rolling-off-the-bottom-of-the-posts-under-the-reply-box-thing and forgetting about it, outright just not noticing things in the hotbed of activity that is this thread, and ("Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.") ninjas.

[Lenglon]

TolyK - did Jack change the mode?

FoU - you missed questions addressed to you.

[FallacyofUrist]

Probably. This might take a while, given all the pages. I'll see what I can do later, though.

[Pozzai]

*snip*

 See my issue with this is you completely skip the part where you come to the conclussion that they're town or cultleader in #297. Your narrative this entire game on Tolyk seems to be pushing them as scum/cult leader, but yet you give them a townread, only to back off of it again fairly quickly in #472, and now later in the day back to scum/cult leader again.

 Your response now lent nothing to the explanation of why it went scum/cult -> town/cult -> cult -> scum/cult, like why the sudden two 180s? The fact that you didn't cover that in your 'walkthrough' right now feels like it was a note you hadn't strongly considered, because it had no greater importance to you, potentially because it was not actually a read, but more stuff you already knew?

[Pozzai]

Vote: Flabort

 I should return before dayend, but just in case I don't.

 @Doll if say Flabort does get lynched and flips mafia, but not the role you think, are they the type that could've TMIed the role exists, despite not being it themselves?

Extend

 Take this as a "would hammer for extension if needed" but I am not actively advocating, nor do I personally feel it is needed, but merely doing it out of courtesy.

[TolyK]

Really quick reply for now:

TolyK - did Jack change the mode?

Assuming he's telling the truth, no.

FoU: I'll try to be quick.
I can do things with roles (this does not require me to be in a chat with people). If you want, I can have you know part of my role in a specific manner. I'll actually set that right now, since you seem to legitimately think I'm a cult leader.
Re: gambit: I would agree that with wifom, this leads nowhere.
Useless role relevance is so that I might avoid doing a useless action tonight.

Where do we have an explanation for what "survival mode" is? We only have a description for one effect, and even that doesn't make sense (why would scum get a free kill during "survival" mode?).
I've posted some of my reads ninjaing you. I can spare an actual read list IRL-tomorrow.

Indeed, you are pushing the case. Congrats. Unfortunately, it's incorrect. You might still see me as scum or some weird-ass cult leader, but there you go.

I am able to vote, yes.


And assuming everything goes correct, you'll get your proof once Wuba processes actions.

[TheDarkStar]

TDS: can you speak more to your flabort and FoU reads?

flabort:

Most recently, he's posted his reads. They're pretty normal (and I get a deserved poke for my inactivity). He doesn't cite sources directly but he does summarize what people have done so far. His other major posts consist of various responses to stuff where he's actually just delaying responses to stuff.

...and then lots of other similar posts. Basically, flabort has put no pressure on anyone and has done no scumhunting. He leans scum for activelurking, although he does read a bit more closely than TBF so my vote is staying on TBF for now. Until I read through TBF's posts, though, TBF is only a little more scummy than flabort.


FoU:

He posts his recent reads here. Well, "recent" - they're from last Friday. Earlier, last Wednesday, he has another large post. It's mostly RVS, although he does call TolyK a potential cult leader (and in another RVS post a while earlier he also says something about it to TolyK). However, he doesn't vote on it and doesn't follow that train of thought in other posts. (PPE: Pozzai has raised similar concerns in his most recent post). The most concerning thing is that I don't see much actual interaction between FoU and TolyK - yes, FoU has said that he thinks TolyK might be a cult leader, but there's only one response here where TolyK seems somewhat evasive. Overall, there's... almost nothing of substance anywhere. His reads are nice to have but I really want to see more stuff from him.


TolyK: In this post where you respond to FoU's concerns about you being a cult leader, you note that you have a way to prove you're not a cult leader today. What do you mean?

PPE: It looks like TolyK just addressed this.

[Lenglon]

Tolyk - You can act more than once per phase?
Was your chat invite power a 1-shot?
Why are you using an ability to prove yourself to a single vote others disagree with?
Considering your behavior, is it beneficial for people to vote you?

[TheDarkStar]

EBWOP: FoU addressed some of my concerns in his most recent post but I had already used LurkerTracker to open all his posts before that so I missed it. Now it seems like FoU is very anti-cult but hasn't addressed the existence of mafia/other scum that much.

FoU: Other than TolyK, who do you find suspicious?