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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 602481 times)

Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2310 on: May 20, 2017, 01:32:45 pm »

A 15mm/.60 cal HMG is only slightly bigger than a .50. Mounting it on aircraft was something I've been trying to ask Sensei about. If it is going to add difficulty, then I won't leave it on there. It it's not, well, a .60 mounted on the Haast ought to be pretty awesome for ground attack purposes. The M2 .50 cal HMG was one of the longest-serving weapons of its time, and was extremely important to winning the war. Why? Because it gave aircraft, tanks, defensive positions, even infantry a hard-hitting weapon that was much more portable than the much larger 20mm cannon (And MUCH larger 20mm cannon ammunition) and therefore highly useful.

In other words, this is not going to be so completely non-portable and useless as you assume. There is a reason that nobody used coaxial autocannons---The space required for ammo is just ridiculous, and its not as good as a HMG at dealing with infantry in danger-close situations.

You still haven't answered whether this thing is intended to replace the AS-AC18s or Sorraias on our aircraft. The former are higher-RPM, higher-calibre, and armour piercing as compared to the War Horse, while replacing the latter with War Horses and expecting performance to be absolutely unchanged is quite impossible.

Also, I did not in any of my posts argue for coaxial AS-AC18s, or even infantry-portable ones, so quit arguing against them.

And I've already posted a quote regarding why a Super-Heavy Machine Gun is not exactly helpful in the jungle, which you haven't answered. Admittedly I don't have the book in that citation to quote, too. But really, I think it's pretty obvious that the addition of a small, wheeled cart will not help the portability of the SHMG at all in an off-track jungle environment.
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NAV

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2311 on: May 20, 2017, 01:40:08 pm »

Minor nitpick, but the horsekiller does in fact have AP rounds. And APHE.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:41:53 pm by NAV »
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2312 on: May 20, 2017, 01:43:47 pm »

The War Horse is a replacement for aircraft needing to swap Sorraias for harder-hitting machineguns. It will be, in limited form, infantry portable. This is a possibility in the jungle, though not ideal for obvious reasons. That said, it will do what the M14 did in Vietnam: It will punch through the jungle. The trees, bushes, assorted other plant life, none of that will stop this thing. It expands the range and depth of cover we can engage enemies at. As in, they need a much thicker bit of cover to hide behind with one of these on their case. And you can fire it near your own guys without worrying about FF incidents with shrapnel and whatnot. Plus, having done a bit of research, I'm going to bump the cyclic rate of fire to more closely match really early models of the M2 Browning .50, which fired closer to 450-600 RPM. I'm going to set the revision as boosting RPM to 400, instead of a mere 20 RPM increase to make the number nice and round.

Basically, this is replacement for the Sorraia---but only in places where an HMG makes more sense. As in, aircraft and vehicle mounts would become War Horses, whereas the Sorraia would remain the LMG of choice for infantry. Otherwise, this can be seen as an augmentation to our MG capabilities. It will multiply the firepower of, say, a Salamander. A .30 like the Sorraia is OK for infantry in the open, but a .60 can all but demolish the building you're hiding in.

EDIT: Edited the changes into the description of the weapon linked in the vote box.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:48:52 pm by Madman198237 »
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3_14159

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2313 on: May 20, 2017, 01:47:45 pm »

A 15mm/.60 cal HMG is only slightly bigger than a .50. Mounting it on aircraft was something I've been trying to ask Sensei about. If it is going to add difficulty, then I won't leave it on there. It it's not, well, a .60 mounted on the Haast ought to be pretty awesome for ground attack purposes. The M2 .50 cal HMG was one of the longest-serving weapons of its time, and was extremely important to winning the war. Why? Because it gave aircraft, tanks, defensive positions, even infantry a hard-hitting weapon that was much more portable than the much larger 20mm cannon (And MUCH larger 20mm cannon ammunition) and therefore highly useful.
Let's take the M2 Browning to fill those attributes to defined in the design, and compare them with the AS-AC18s.
RoF: War Horse 200rds/min, AS-AC18 600rds/min
Weight: M2 Browning 38kg, AS-AC18 40kg
Estimated Relative Ammo Weight: AS-AC18 about 1.7x heavier than the War Horse
Feed Mechanism: War Horse is belt-fed,while the AS-AC18 has a 25-round magazine.
Cost: The AS-AC18 is already cheap.

In summary, there are two advantages of the Warhorse: It is belt-fed (the real rate of fire is therefore probably closer to equal than the above suggests) and it can fire seven rounds for every four the AS-AC18 fires. On the other hand, the AS-AC18 is far more powerful, should be nicely portable for a heavy weapon, and works. So, if you want to revise a heavy weapon, why not revise the AS-AC18 for a higher muzzle velocity, belt-feed, and maybe a carriage mount?
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Funk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2314 on: May 20, 2017, 02:50:38 pm »

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
SHMG-40 War Horse: (5) Madman198237, Piratejoe, evictedSaint, Mulisa, Funk
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (1) Taricus
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Powder Miner
'Archer' Pattern G: (1) NAV
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:(1) Strongpoint
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(0)
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2315 on: May 20, 2017, 02:52:05 pm »

You are way behind Funk, this is the latest vote tally.
Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (0)
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (1) Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:()
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(5) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, Stabby, strongpoint
UF-AC-40: (0)
Reduced Infantry QoL: (9) NUKE9.13, Azzuro, Andrea, Kashyyk, Powder Miner, Taricus, 3_14159, RAM, evictedSaint
Full Infantry QOL: (2) NAV, GUNINANRUNIN

Order:
Continue production of the Stallion: (2) 3_14159, NAV
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2316 on: May 20, 2017, 02:52:38 pm »

Quote
M4 Kiger HMG: (0)
BLOODLESS EAGLE: (0)
BLOODIER EAGLE: (0)
Chum: (0)
'Archer' Pattern F: (3)Wolfhunter107, Helmacon, Baffler
'Archer' Pattern G: (1) Happerry
"Reachr" Ship Destroyer: (0)
UF-ALR-40 'SHARUKH:()
UF-ABR-40 "Shower Curtain":(1) VoidSlayer
SHMG-40 "War Horse" :(6) Mulisa, Madman198237, Piratejoe, Stabby, strongpoint, Funk
UF-AC-40: (0)
Reduced Infantry QoL: (9) NUKE9.13, Azzuro, Andrea, Kashyyk, Powder Miner, Taricus, 3_14159, RAM, evictedSaint
Full Infantry QOL: (2) NAV, GUNINANRUNIN

Yeah, Funk. You evaporated a lot of votes. Here's the vote tally, though I think Sensei already pulled the list and decided what won.
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piratejoe

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2317 on: May 20, 2017, 03:34:39 pm »

-snip-
I have no clue what you are thinking, but a autocannon is about as portable by infantry as a trebuchet is, that is to say, not at all unless mounted on a vehicle of some sort. Meanwhile, a MG is actually portable by infantry and fulfills the Anti Infantry roll well. After all, if autocannons where just simply better, why would military's ever use heavy mgs in the first place?
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RAM

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2318 on: May 20, 2017, 03:57:17 pm »

Instead of a carriage you could probaly have a single wheel and be somewhat jungle-portable, two wheels at any distance will need attention to avoid getting stuck on things and thus be super-annoying while also breaking down a lot. You could have one person drag the AC20, one drag a mounting for it, and a third drag the ammunition belt. It would take a while to set it up, but it would work great in ambushes which is what is needed. The realy problem with the HMG is that it is useless against an A.P.C. which is sort-of what tends to happen to our infantry right now... The only real advantage to the H.M.G. is that it can fire for longer.

Is sending things to Japan an option? Are they allied with Germany? I may have missed it... Still, the Yanks are openly supporting the Allies despite their isolationism so, meh, should work...
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piratejoe

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2319 on: May 20, 2017, 05:20:21 pm »

Is sending things to Japan an option? Are they allied with Germany? I may have missed it... Still, the Yanks are openly supporting the Allies despite their isolationism so, meh, should work...
Japan is in fact allied with Germany, in fact, they where first to sign the anti Comintern pact...also the yanks did that IRL
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2320 on: May 20, 2017, 07:19:29 pm »

do we have colored smoke? If not, we should add it to the QoL.

Sensei

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1939 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #2321 on: May 20, 2017, 08:08:08 pm »

Well, I'm going to suggest this again:
Spoiler: Infantry QoL (click to show/hide)
Bay12 has such dramatic vote turnarounds!

I should remind you that if you want a normal-ish heavy machine gun, you can just reinstate the Moskurg M1 Stallion, which fires .60 caliber Horsekiller rounds. It's arguably a bit unrealistic but right now both sides have been using autocannons in the "emplaced machine gun" type role; perhaps I will do a mention next battle report of how portable they are (or aren't) after doing a little research to compare them to normal HMG's.

I'll go through the list of infantry stuff you have here; I feel like some of it is outside the scope of the game in the same way that I said no on military bulldozers in the first game; most "Construction Corps" type stuff that's easy to make you should probably just automatically 'have' and it's assumed to be someone else's department, in the interest in keeping the game focused on the cool stuff since you only have so many turns anyway.

Since some of this is seriously negligible in terms of how the game works (remember, I like to usually think in "big steps", if stuff is worth less than whatever a full +1 would be I like to think of it only as a tie-breaker normally) I may re-add some things that were in the full Infantry QoL proposal if I deem it fair, since I don't want to either gyp you guys on this, or to boot you back to the debate on this again. I just can't really imagine a battle report saying "The Forenians are equal to the Cannalans in most ways, but because they have more comfortable boots, they have an infantry advantage." It also doesn't prompt any creative counters from the Cannalans, the only thing they can do to catch up is "Well, I guess we also make some more comfortable boots. Since apparently that's a thing in this game."

Normal, maybe??: 6
Infantry QoL:

-Boots: You already have good boots that don't reasonably stand to be improved.
-Binoculars: You have created binoculars which are Cheap to manufacture. The lens are made of "acrylic glass" and the quality isn't as good as the ones on your rifle scopes but it's fine for this purpose.
-Medikits: You already have some medical officers equipped with bandages, disinfectant, surgery tools etc.
-Sunglasses: Sunglasses take the form of wide goggles with a single acrylic lens across the face.
-Bayonets: Combat knives which fit on bayonet lugs replace single-purpose knives or bayonets.
-Engineering Equipment: You already have sandbags, barbed wire etc. You could maybe benefit from metal detectors to find mines, but those would at least need their own revision.
-Pockets, etc: Your current uniforms leave no real room for improvement, but a lot of important straps are replaced with slightly lighter and more durable nylon fabric. The weird elbow pouch nobody uses is kept as a matter of tradition.
-Knee and elbow pads: Solid metal knee and elbow pads fit over thick cotton ones sewn into the uniforms. Most of the time, soldiers eschew the hard pads for flexibility unless they know they'll be crawling through gravel or something.
-Gloves: Right now the best gloves you can make are the leather gloves you already have. They're available in full or finger-less cut.
-Flashlights: The UF standard flashlight uses leak-resistant zinc-carbon batteries, in an aluminum frame. It fits on weapon rail mounts, or on helmets. It's rather heavy though, so soldiers prefer to hold them by hand when they can, possibly with a pistol in the other hand. Also includes colored lenses for signalling.
-Compasses/navigation: You already have compasses, sextants and parallax rangefinders- they work fine. Soldiers always have a compass but sextants and rangefinders are only issued where deemed necessary.
-Cricket: Sure why not.
-Mosquito Nets: Soldiers are now given these standard issue instead of buying them with their wages before they deploy. The few Arstotzkans who scoffed and said, "They're just bugs, right?" really appreciate it.
-Other Stuff: Steerable parachutes or plastic explosives should probably be a revision on their own, so that's where I'm stopping.

Out of all this, binoculars and flashlights are the only things truly worth mentioning in the battle report. Fluff wise, your uniforms will be considered comfortable and modern looking into the early cold war.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #2322 on: May 20, 2017, 08:10:47 pm »

...ouch.  Was afraid of that.  NGL, we could have been way more productive with that round.

We need to find a nice middle ground between "Unexpectedly hard" revisions and "Trivial but useless" revisions.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 08:12:40 pm by evictedSaint »
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #2323 on: May 20, 2017, 08:15:31 pm »

Next turn: .60 HMG. Please and thank you. So, next turn, design a new carrier? Did we submit anything to our allies yet?
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helmacon

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1940 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #2324 on: May 20, 2017, 08:17:54 pm »

TFW you roll a 6, but you already have everything you asked for.
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