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[dragdeler]

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[RedKing]

What's commonly called civility was allways just a thin veil on a monstrous society. I don't think civility is the glue that holds social cohesion together. I'd place my bets on common goals and mutuality for that... like some whacko noob who doesn't even vote against his self-interests.




I thought we were talking about the mathematical implications of possibly spiting a reactonnary and Redking explained pretty well how it might be favorable to talk to twenty fellow human beings that don't reject your arguments as a matter of principle. And honestly if we take you seriously we should absolutely avoid talking to them in order not to offend them, that's our best shot at them not feeling rushed according to your own logic.

Good point. Sort of a variation on the "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" aphorism -- "You don't piss off 100% of the people you don't interact with. Except those who are pissed off at your very existence, and really, fuck those people."

[nenjin]

I would like to say I'm surprised by the responses I'm getting here to the outrageous idea that talking to your fellow human beings about your differences is better than the alternative. But I'm not.

You're going to spout this nonsense while Trump is in office? Really? The guy who has made a political career of not giving a shit what anyone thinks, embracing whatever he chooses to believe as truth, and that his base loves him for, you're going to weaponize it and tell people they're supposed to engage with that? Out of what? A sense of fairness? The fairness he so totally practices?

Please. When people are willing to "discuss their differences" with even a shred of intellectual honesty and integrity, let me know. I'll engage on that all day. But some douche bag trying to tell me that he steadfastly believes blue is actually red despite knowing better, fuck that. I'm not going to give a platform or energy to that kind of self-serving dishonesty.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

If it worked that way, the Democrats would have enjoyed a massive electoral advantage since at least the 1990's. Right-wing talk radio has never been one to mince their words, and there's pretty much nothing equivalent to that on the Left. Trump brought about the rise of the left-wing troll, and now the Right is playing this bullshit concern trolling about "civility" because they're discovering they don't have a monopoly on being an asshole (and because like all cowards, they know they're about to be on the short end of the stick and don't want to reap what they have sown).

Trump and the MAGA movement killed civility and pissed on its corpse. And it's been immensely.....liberating. (Also toxic and corrosive to the bonds of civil society, but incredibly liberating for some of us.)

I think your perspective of left/right is a bit flawed, in that case, as it sorta sounds like you are accounting not for the entire country, but the spectra within the cities that typically form the left half of the whole spectrum.  After all, those right-wing talkers?  They wouldn't have a show if there weren't people to listen, so while ranging from boisterous to asshole in your eyes, there points are agreed with by people and not neccessarily entirely in whole.

Similarly, you might just not notice it.  Take this instance from the Newsroom show.  If you pay attention, there's a subtle condescension there.  Both stand-ins for the sides are critiqued, yes, but it is the content of the critique.  The critque of the right wing stand-in is focused around what they are saying to get elected, while the critique of the left-wing stand-in is of what they are doing to get elected.

Going back in time a bit, consider Obama's "You didn't build that" comments.  It was aimed to focus on government programs that helped build businesses, but the kicker is, that only really majorly happens in cities.  In rural regions, there aren't close to as many programs and so businesses built out there typically are ones the person build through their efforts. That and comments similar are taking with immense offense.

Those things slowly build up over time.

And a final note, consider perspective on a line.  Picture 100 people lined up on a single line in order of their political beliefs, one side being one extreme, the other is the other.  Now picture a flag erected between two people at the 5% mark on each side, each representing the extreme ends.  If you were to take the position in the middle of each half, you could pretty much see who's on the other side of that side's flag, but you get a distorted view of the other side.  (Fakeedit: You guys are nailing my point here by blaming literally everything on the right and not considering how your own, to borrow an old descriptor for the worst people on a side, 'men covered in shit' fueled things.)

To use a personal anecdote for that, I float around the center-right (minarchism with many, very strong labor unions gives a rough, though not precise eyeball of where I am).  I can't name where precisely Bernie lands.  But I can nail down Trump.  He's a "I want things to be like they were in the 80s/90s" guy who fumbles around with running the government because he thinks it is like running a business and thereby breaks precedent because he thinks himself akin to the new CEO and views Congress as a partly-hostile Board of Directors due to an opposition party.  Nails him way more than what Fascist doctrine does when you compare what was done to the descriptor.

[nenjin]

Nails him way more than what Fascist doctrine does when you compare what was done to the descriptor.

This works fine, if you set aside his opinions on:

-Minorities
-Immigrants
-The media
-Foreign nations
-Executive power
-Political opposition

Once you add those back in, "just a greedy businessman who wishes things to be like they were in the 80s/90s" doesn't cut it. You're criticizing people reducing him to fascist caricature while yourself setting aside all the OTHER shit he's said, done or promoted. "The only good democrat is a dead democrat." Remember that guy he signal boosted? I suppose that just doesn't fit in to the narrative of "he's not that harmless."

[dragdeler]

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[Kagus]

While I personally feel that Trump and his cronies/enablers are utterly reprehensible scumbags, I try not to let that get in the way of me at least attempting to avoid the same kind of language that his supporters use.

Yes, he and they are lowering the bar. But that's not a bar I want to hold myself to.

[Frumple]

In rural regions, there aren't close to as many programs and so businesses built out there typically are ones the person build through their efforts.

I mean, being out here, this is pretty horseshit. Businesses that don't just keel over and die in these regions tend to be reliant to one extreme or another on government support, be it direct subsidies, favorable tax/utility treatment, or all that infrastructure they probably siphon away money from more populated areas to build or maintain. There's precious bloody little in rural areas that are actually built through their owners efforts, and less that stays standing through it.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

-Minorities
-Immigrants

Dude, in the US, even in 2004 gay marriage acceptance was only floating around 41% and extrapolating back further easily drops it into the low 30s, transsexuality only really started coming into public awareness in any big way in the last 20 years, DACA only came about in 2012 and Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act was 1996.

-The media

"No such thing as bad publicity" comes to mind.  Seriously, look at the sheer numbers of effective free talk about him he managed to get that just drilled his name deeper and deeper into people's minds.  That's damn near how he won the primaries.  And just think of how much more active people have been talking about him compared to Obama, and even negative stuff was put ridiculous next to some nontroversies like the whole "Two Scoops" moment and the such.

And if you go back, Romney's bid was killed with one comment and another guy was killed by a shout of enthusiasm.  Trump has so many that no singular can stick to the same degree that stuff starts to fall out of people's minds.

Heck, going back, the one that wasn't exploited and did stick was back in 2017 with Syria 'cuz it was a fairly quieter one.  Every other one got landed in partisan lines.

-Foreign nations

What wars have we gotten into under him for any extended period of time?  Couple of strikes, but Bush was worse on this front (still stuck in his shit) and even Obama pushed for some somewhat long term stuff in Libya.  Meanwhile we got North Korea to chill a bit and there's those deals in the middle least being worked out.

-Executive power

Ah yes, and Obama giving a ton of people citizenship via executive order wasn't a massive expansion, much less all the other shit that's been going on.  Face it, guy's the culmination of shit that started in the 60s with the 'oh the president can declare psuedo-wars' act, with precedent being the only thing that's really stopped people.  And Trump as a businessman considers precedent as 'how last guy did it'.  And we may only be seeing as much of Trump's shit compared to others with how much he's riled up the media whereas a less blatent dude would have sneaked it in under the electorate.

Fuck, the army experimented directly on the American populace in the 60s and 70s without their knowledge, literally gassing people with biological weapons.  We are fucked and have been for a long time.

-Political opposition

I haven't heard of a House Committee on Unamerican Activities being setup.  Seriously, US has been worse on that front even dating back to the founders.  Seriously, read what they said about each other.  Nowadays is pretty tame.

[JoshuaFH]

And what's your point? You haven't really addressed the main concern.

[dragdeler]

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[nenjin]

Dude, in the US, even in 2004 gay marriage acceptance was only floating around 41% and extrapolating back further easily drops it into the low 30s, transsexuality only really started coming into public awareness in any big way in the last 20 years, DACA only came about in 2012 and Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act was 1996.

What is your point, exactly? That since acceptance of unqualified, basic humanity is only a recent concept to American politics, him trying to walk us back 30+ years in our attitudes toward is acceptable?

The media

What, again, is your actual point? Trump has spent most of his time in office trying to delegitimize the work the actual media does while amplifying other, "less rigorous" outlets like OAN. Just a little harmless manipulating public perception, right? No long term consequences for trying to delegimitize the media, or you know, scientists like the people begging us to not kill each other with Covid.

Meanwhile we got North Korea to chill a bit and there's those deals in the middle least being worked out.

Saber rattling and calling China an enemy of the United States, for one. He's about two "God destroy them"s away from sounding like Iran. His attitude toward foreign nations is he can say whatever the fuck he wants, disrupt trade with reactionary tariffs, trade bans, and the like, because it's all "just a big game." Yeah, that's the attitude I want from my president, a guy who is gaming with our lives like nothing he says in public actually matters, whether that's about us, our allies, our actual enemies (I really love that people act as though kissing NK's ass is somehow some great diplomatic achievement, like kissing their ass somehow averted war, which every other modern president without a crushing small dick syndrome was smart enough not to give them what they wanted. NK gamed the fuck out of the "Dealmaker" and got the legitimacy they craved. Gee now why does that sound familiar........)

Face it, guy's the culmination of shit that started in the 60s with the 'oh the president can declare psuedo-wars' act, with precedent being the only thing that's really stopped people.  And Trump as a businessman considers precedent as 'how last guy did it'.  And we may only be seeing as much of Trump's shit compared to others with how much he's riled up the media whereas a less blatent dude would have sneaked it in under the electorate.

Amazing how you give the guy you can currently make a decision about a pass, compared to the ones before them that aren't now running for office. Just because he's expanding on previously established overreach doesn't NOW excuse his overreach. And considering how often he's blamed Obama for everything from Corona to the economy under his own watch, why should that argument hold ANY water to anyone? If a kid sticks their hand in the cookie jar without permission, and their excuse is "I saw Billy do it", you don't go "Oh ok Jimmy, well since Billy did I guess I totally can't stop you from doing it now." No, you reprimand Jimmy, then go find Billy and reprimand them too if it's within your purview. You don't just excuse it because then you invite more of. But oh, OBAMA did it so it's cool if we just lower our standards below that, because OBAMA. I guess if you do say the man's name enough he becomes the end all be all of everything, include basic critical thinking skills.

Seriously

Seriously, the guy who runs the county signal boosted a guy who said I should be killed for my political beliefs. Seriously. No, seriously, go look it up. Seriously. Even if he didn't know that part of it was there, that just speaks to how LITTLE HE THINKS before he does something. That you really believe an impulsive narcissist is somehow not a bad choice for the country, AGAIN, boggles my mind. Just how he ran his mouth during corona should show you enough that a) he doesn't bother to understand anything before giving his PRESIDENTIAL opinion b) he doesn't value experts c) he tries to profit directly from it and d) he honestly doesn't give a shit what happens to American citizens as a result of either what he says, does, or DOESN'T do.

Also why you're hearkening back to the inception of the US as an example of why we should excuse any of this now is mind boggling to me. "Dude, people used to go into each other's caves and kill each other with rocks. THAT was brutal. That shooting the other day when I guy walked up to a stranger on the street and blew him away, it has nothing on the level of brutality we used to know." Like, the fuck?

[misko27]

I feel sometimes this thread exists in an alternate universe, where we aren't experiencing the equivalent of 9/11 every 3-to-4 days from a deadly pandemic (not that it denies it, just not really actively discussing it as much as other, more comfortable topics like hatred, oppression, and polarization). But then I realize it wouldn't matter anyway if they did discuss it and I just need a space to openly verbalize my slow, mounting panic. I  don't know, maybe people just can't stand to talk about it anymore, or there's nothing to say and do but to watch the numbers go up and hold our head in our hands. Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm losing it.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

And what's your point? You haven't really addressed the main concern.

I was addressing the point by pointing out the fucked up shit he did is till better than a lot of other presidents.  Someone pointed out the killing of a general.  How many times were there assassination attempts of Castro alone?  Merely going with those is not sufficient indication for it to legitimately be fascism.

Is he calling for the destruction of Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment thought?  Nope, he's appealing to the ideals of America that were founded upon that in an interpretation about 30 years old rather than some new philosophy based on hundreds of years ago.
Is he calling for the subsumation of the person to the state?  Nope, he's even kinda railing against it with trying to lift the lockdowns which could easily be used on to indefinite for all manner of authoritarian crap.
Is he seizing guns like literally every authoritarian regime does in order to make resistance harder?  Nope, only really talking about bump stocks and that kinda hasn't gone anywhere.
Is he setting up a ministry to approve and ban certain forms of speech that could harm his power?  He's a bit grumpy, but with Twitter trying to fact check his tweets, there's kinda a push in the opposite direction, as the main focus is kinda (c)(2) of Section 230 that allows for moderation of sites.
Is he establishing a ministry of industry to install governmental managers into businesses and potentially take them over whenever the state deems compliance of an uncomplaint business is neccessary?  Nope.

There is a gulf between what he's doing and legit fascism.

[MrRoboto75]

I feel sometimes this thread exists in an alternate universe, where we aren't experiencing the equivalent of 9/11 every 3-to-4 days from a deadly pandemic (not that it denies it, just not really actively discussing it as much as other, more comfortable topics like hatred, oppression, and polarization). But then I realize it wouldn't matter anyway if they did discuss it and I just need a space to openly verbalize my slow, mounting panic. I  don't know, maybe people just can't stand to talk about it anymore, or there's nothing to say and do but to watch the numbers go up and hold our head in our hands. Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm losing it.

To be fair bay12 has a separate thread for covid stuff.  Either way there's basically nothing to do but wait and die because we aren't job creators rich people or corporations that actually got stimulus money and so the government is never going to save us, until there's a vaccine to charge us an arm and a leg over.