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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4227550 times)

SOLDIER First

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40995 on: October 26, 2020, 08:17:33 pm »

It genuinely frightens me that anyone with any sense of rationality or morality would feel obligated to defend a fascist for literally anything. You should really try and not do that any more, Zan.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40996 on: October 26, 2020, 08:19:35 pm »

If cans of coke grew on trees, everyone would die around 14.
Alternatively, they'd treat it like fruit and shun them cokefruit like apples or whatever. Extra best bonus it might put at least one cola company out of business either way :P
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40997 on: October 26, 2020, 08:20:09 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 05:09:07 pm by dragdeler »
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40998 on: October 26, 2020, 08:26:46 pm »

But we weren't hostile.  We weren't vicious.  Hell, what do they need?  I want to help people move towards the left, but most of the time I do so, I'm confronted with this kind of nonsense.  And combating the nonsense is treated as an attack.

It's not an attack on you! You're probably a fellow worker.

Man covered in shit principle.  Whatever you say will be said by a man covered in shit, and while you may not see the ones on your side they will still exist and the other person probably came across them.  This is the issue with raw trying to convince someone, so don't come at it from that angle.

Just have a talk.

Do not try to point to what is different.  Find the points of commonality.  The more you can find, the more agreeable both of you will be when things turn for the differences allowing things to remain civil and not turn to shitflinging.

When it comes to the differences, do not try to convince.  Present your perspective and listen to theirs.  Go to the core of why.  Do not be afraid of being wrong.  Even the most studied does not have all the answers.

Ignore.  Anything.  Current.  Focus on principle.

Also forced balanced budget? Federal budget?

Federal budget deficits means there is more money floating around in our pockets, unlike a local government running a budget deficit which means they're short on tax revenue which they need to collect to offset actual spending because they're funded that way.

Not really.  About 6 trillion is between government agency funding shenanigans.  10 trillion in the federal reserve who's bonds operate on the bank level as a sorta supply to help pay for interest on accounts that at current rates the middle and lower classes really don't benefit much from.  Another 6 trillion is on foreign investment.  Cut off another $1 trillion for state/local governments, and a good chunk of another trillion to account that individuals won't form too much in the 'other' compared to other banks, corproations, etc.  So you end up with about $4 trillion in the American People and only so much is going to make that to middle and lower classes compared to upper.

Meanwhile, the move to fiat money that has allowed for this continued increasing pile of debt to be done without need to back up the money has completely and utterly fucked the dollar's value, tearing wages away from productivity and leaving us on a path of utter breakdown if growth slows below the rate at which the debt increases.

The Federal Reserve has put a blank check to buy bad loans in order to prevent our economy from breaking.  That is the only reason we are remotely stable.  We have a good enough credit rating right now that this can be done, but this is very much a 'should be used sparingly' hat trick.

Edit:
It genuinely frightens me that anyone with any sense of rationality or morality would feel obligated to defend a fascist for literally anything. You should really try and not do that any more, Zan.

Because I used writings of Mussolini to find out what the ideology wanted (know your enemy and all that) and compared that to Trump and found the fascistic descriptor wanting outside of maybe the broad authoritarian context that the US has kinda already been doing and in worse ways often.  I can concede authoritarian, but the particulars of fascism just aren't there without stretching from what I've found.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:42:58 pm by Zanzetkuken The Great »
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40999 on: October 26, 2020, 09:08:14 pm »

The side thing is false.

America's Right is globally Right. America's Left covers global Central Right to Far Left. You can see it in extremeists. Right wing terrorists believe in the Republican party - or at least members of it. Manifestos praise Trump for being anti-immigrant. Not all, of course, the extreme Right don't, but that would be rare.
Left-wing terrorists (I can only think of ecoterrorists) would call the Democrats dickless cowards. I would happily read about any left terrorist who praises any American politician.
There are obviously ideological differences that reinforce that, but the point remains - "there's bad guys on both sides" is irrelevant if everyone is Right of you.

I agree with your point in general - that discourse is dead and that is a tragedy. That we should be able to have cool and calm conversations about politics, but that time is over and has been intentionally dragged out and killed. The abolitionist pacifists of the past said that discourse was the only means to keep a country together, while the pro-slavery faction raided towns in Missouri, killing abolitionists in the street. They were wrong. Sometimes the only solution is to gather the pikes and take Harper's Ferry. Sometimes the best way to stop the spread of authoritarian ideas is to silence anyone who supports them.

Edit: I read more of this thread and realize my rant might be tangential. Oh well.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:37:08 pm by delphonso »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41000 on: October 26, 2020, 09:42:09 pm »

My point about deficits is that the government running a surplus means they're pulling more out of the economy than they're injecting, when the people who issue the currency are taking it back out of the system that doesn't automatically mean it's coming out of my pocket or your pocket, but it definitely doesn't equate to some sort of benefit like one might naively think the term "budget surplus" would mean.

Federal taxes don't fund the federal government, it needs to buy something it says "you have more money in your account now" and it's done.

A deficit means they spent more money that year and took less back which means some of that money they didn't pull out of the system could end up still moving around the system, pocket to pocket, account to account, etc.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41001 on: October 26, 2020, 09:47:24 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 05:09:12 pm by dragdeler »
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41002 on: October 26, 2020, 09:50:04 pm »

Sometimes the best way to stop the spread of authoritarian ideas is to silence anyone who supports them.

May as well mention on this particular one before someone mentions the "a Tolerant society must be intolerant of the intolerant." That's actually a misquotation of the overall thought experiment.  The accurate summation is: "For a society to remain free, the intolerant must be engaged in conversation to be convinced to become tolerant.  But if the intolerant refuse the conversation, then a tolerant society must become intolerant of those intolerant."

Gets my goat when people only quote the final part of the conclusion as it can be more easily abused due to turning the option of last resort to the only option.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41003 on: October 26, 2020, 09:51:07 pm »

If it worked that way, the Democrats would have enjoyed a massive electoral advantage since at least the 1990's. Right-wing talk radio has never been one to mince their words, and there's pretty much nothing equivalent to that on the Left. Trump brought about the rise of the left-wing troll, and now the Right is playing this bullshit concern trolling about "civility" because they're discovering they don't have a monopoly on being an asshole (and because like all cowards, they know they're about to be on the short end of the stick and don't want to reap what they have sown).

Trump and the MAGA movement killed civility and pissed on its corpse. And it's been immensely.....liberating. (Also toxic and corrosive to the bonds of civil society, but incredibly liberating for some of us.)

*blah blah blah "both sides" moral equivalence bullshit*

But I can nail down Trump.  He's a "I want things to be like they were in the 80s/90s" guy who fumbles around with running the government because he thinks it is like running a business and thereby breaks precedent because he thinks himself akin to the new CEO and views Congress as a partly-hostile Board of Directors due to an opposition party.  Nails him way more than what Fascist doctrine does when you compare what was done to the descriptor.
"Greedy businessman who wants things to be like they were in the 80s" was what I expected from Trump. A guy who would be largely a political novice getting pulled around on strings by the actual Republican kingmakers, and focus mainly on fiscal and tax policy and maybe immigration as a red-meat issue. I suspect it's largely what THEY expected out of him as well, or they would have opposed him more vigorously and coherently in the primaries.

Instead, what we all got was a narcissistic megalomaniac who idolizes autocrats and enemies of the United States while simultaneously denigrating democracy and democratic allies of the United States. Even GWB at his worst was still a proponent of democracy (if anything, one of his greatest flaws was being such a fan of democracy that he wanted to spread it all over the world at the point of a gun).


EDIT: @Zanzetkuken, I feel like you're saying something on par with "Well, he hasn't dressed his base up in snappy military-style uniforms with colored armbands yet, so clearly not a fascist."
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 10:06:10 pm by RedKing »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41004 on: October 26, 2020, 10:16:50 pm »

No skulls on the helmets of ICE so we must not be the bad guys, right
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41005 on: October 26, 2020, 10:20:56 pm »

Read all the pages.

Was made angry and sad and incredulous and happy, not in equal measure.

I struggle to see how Zan can defend Trump on anything - from his legitimization of a tin-pot dictator waving around his nukes, to his demonizing the media as the enemy of the people - apparently because some people called him fascist and what he’s doing doesn’t meet the textbook definition of fascist. It’s already been said that the what-aboutism regarding previous presidents does not excuse the incumbent’s behaviour, but it bears repeating: just because someone else did it at some point in the past, does not mean it should be excused when he (or anyone else!) does it.

If there’s one thing that demonstrates Trump’s complete lack of suitability as a leader - and boy howdy there are a lot of things I could have chosen from - it’s covid. There are tapes of him saying he understands the seriousness of it before it became a yuge big deal.

Despite this, 8 months, 8.6m cases, 224,000+ deaths, and his own covid diagnosis later, he, his administration, and his party STILL do not treat it seriously by showing the public that wearing a mask and social distancing are sensible things to do, because (presumably) they fear losing office more than they care about dealing with the crisis.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41006 on: October 26, 2020, 10:21:18 pm »

I have several complaints of the man (I'm a minarchist that wants the federal government gutted down to military, foreign relations, and interstate disputes with a forced balanced budget and all other things dropped to state-level if not county or even town/city to bring power as close to the people as possible.  You don't think I have some gripes?).

Out of curiosity, how do you define these three topics? (Military, foreign relations, and interstate disputes, that is.) Would you include cross-state pollution, climate change, civil rights, medicare, etc. within this?

Regarding a forced balanced budget, are you in favor of a gold standard specifically or just the balanced budget bit?

(Trying to get a better sense of your position.)
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41007 on: October 26, 2020, 10:26:02 pm »

If there’s one thing that demonstrates Trump’s complete lack of suitability as a leader - and boy howdy there are a lot of things I could have chosen from - it’s covid. There are tapes of him saying he understands the seriousness of it before it became a yuge big deal.

Despite this, 8 months, 8.6m cases, 224,000+ deaths, and his own covid diagnosis later, he, his administration, and his party STILL do not treat it seriously by showing the public that wearing a mask and social distancing are sensible things to do, because (presumably) they fear losing office more than they care about dealing with the crisis.

Even worse, he did the worst thing he could do and immediately begin proclaiming he was right and people shouldn't be afraid of it because he survived and it wasn't even that bad see?  The fact he had treatment available that's unrealistic to the overwhelming majority of Americans is lost on him or anyone who believes him.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41008 on: October 26, 2020, 11:30:32 pm »

In addition to the obvious, today's "blackpill so deeply buried I still didn't see it coming" was that Buzz Aldrin endorsed the GOP via Martha McSally.

I'm glad that Trumpworld has completely and utterly killed my space nerd feelings already, or that'd be just crushing. Disgusting old fucker.
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #41009 on: October 26, 2020, 11:34:43 pm »

In addition to the obvious, today's "blackpill so deeply buried I still didn't see it coming" was that Buzz Aldrin endorsed the GOP via Martha McSally.

I'm glad that Trumpworld has completely and utterly killed my space nerd feelings already, or that'd be just crushing. Disgusting old fucker.

They made me unexcited about space military.
Now they're trying to take Buzz from me?
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