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[dragdeler]

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[delphonso]

Spicy thread today. I apologize for pushing you on all that, MrRoboto - I think everyone elses strategy of being kind is a much better way to see things.

[Maximum Spin]

Grundgesetz begs to differ, there is a few articles in there that would do y'all a lot of good tbh.

Many countries which are not free have claimed to be free.

If you don't like freedom, that's your business.

[dragdeler]

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[Maximum Spin]

Fun fact: in the US, our current Constitution came about because a bunch of people got together to amend the previous constitution (which wasn't called that, but was one) and, instead, decided to abolish it and make a better one. Our founding documents repeatedly emphasize our fundamental right to "seek to abolish" the government if we should choose to do so.

You think this is a bad thing, and again, that's fine. This is why people have different countries, to have their different principles in.

ETA your edit:

If only you would allow us to talk about this particularly striking example in the world.

I quite happily allow you to talk about whatever on Earth you want and, in fact, have no power whatsoever to stop you. You only feel stopped because you feel entitled to speak without disagreement, I suspect.

[dragdeler]

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[Doomblade187]

Edit: was Ninja'd by Dragdeler, they fucking nailed it.

I honestly can't understand how anyone could think that incomprehensible torrent of misdirected impotent rage nailed anything.

Try and criticize the current administration to a hardcore trumper and let me know how it goes.

I have, in fact, done so and do so regularly, with members of my own family.

I am saying that, for the sake of your own humanity, if nothing else, you should at least consider the possibility that people aren't all one thing and you might not have them as sussed as you think.

Sigh. Your family isn't gonna go full trumpet on you, they're your family. Additionally, not every strong trump supporter suffers from siege mentality.

For those who do, and I have chatted with a few, as well as observed many other exchanges, a salvo of criticism at the president is taken as a personal offense. It severely limits the ways one can address a population that undergoes this. In fact, I myself have noticed some of this personally wrt the election and the various anti-biden attacks - I grow tired of them, I judge them fake news, and I dismiss it. Turtling is a very human response.

Edit; abusive families exist, forgot for a second there. Be careful with the election if you're in a tenuous situation, y'all.

[Il Palazzo]

Have you considered you might be at fault with the failure of communication? You gonna go around launching salvoes, and then be all amazed at the siege mentality that evokes.

[Maximum Spin]

Sigh. Your family isn't gonna go full trumpet on you, they're your family.

You don't know my family, then.

Additionally, not every strong trump supporter suffers from siege mentality.

Nobody suffers from it, these are human beings we are talking about here.

In fact, I myself have noticed some of this personally wrt the election and the various anti-biden attacks - I grow tired of them, I judge them fake news, and I dismiss it. Turtling is a very human response.

And you have the self-awareness to recognise you are doing this, do you not? Surely you will be willing to admit that, if treated patiently and honestly, you are able to overcome that instinct and engage in an open conversation if the other person treats you as a human, yes? Why do you think this does not apply to others?

[wierd]

Re: Hate for new progressives


No, that is a misunderstanding. My hate-boner is for the oldschool democrats, who I have seen beat "racial inequality", "Public healthcare", and co, like they were dead horses for the better part of 4 decades now.


New kids on the block? They haven't had time to show their stripes, but given how the old vanguard seems to cringe and make grimmacing faces at the new kids, whenever they propose legislation that at least has the potential to actually fix things for the better, I am hopeful for them.


My beef is with politicians that get on their soapbox, and proclaim 'Vote for me, and I will make all the bad things go away!', who then get voted in, and then go to tea, or go and play golf with the bloated corpulent shitbags who feel they might get dirty if they get within 5 feet of a disgusting prole.  (you know, the GOP), then vote in ways that are 180 degrees against what their election platform was, and maneuver exclusively within the domain of "Say and do whatever gets me re-elected."


AOC and pals have not been in office long enough to show that, and so far have not demonstrated a propensity for that.

Your misunderstanding comes from conflating my statement about usurper types (Which the oldschool vanguard Dems totally are-- See also, how they rode the civil rights movement, but did not really accomplish a whole lot except get re-elected a bunch of times, and make lots of industry connections to get stupid rich with.)  with "new progressives."

[Doomblade187]

Have you considered you might be at fault with the failure of communication? You gonna go around launching salvoes, and then be all amazed at the siege mentality that evokes.

Well, as I mentioned, I've watched it happen without being involved usually. Typically, it's a criticism of trump or his policy, not a "I can't believe you support trump you're so racist". The latter definitely counts as a salvo, and will uh, get a suitable response.

Ninja edit: ah, that makes a bit more sense. Yeah, I've heard people call AOC stuff along the lines of "usurper" before.

[dragdeler]

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[Maximum Spin]

Have you considered you might be at fault with the failure of communication? You gonna go around launching salvoes, and then be all amazed at the siege mentality that evokes.

Well, as I mentioned, I've watched it happen without being involved usually. Typically, it's a criticism of trump or his policy, not a "I can't believe you support trump you're so racist". The latter definitely counts as a salvo, and will uh, get a suitable response.

Perhaps the criticism was not as substantive as it seemed to you? I have seen you describe empty emotional appeals as good arguments, at times. It is easy to perceive something as a great and incisive argument when you already agree. Even if the argument itself is sound, it might depend on priors on which the speakers already don't agree.

As to dragdeler, all I can say is that it is a great mercy of our age that we have abolished chattel slavery in the West, because in another timeline, he has the makings of a most indescribably cruel and hardened master.

[dragdeler]

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[Doomblade187]

Sigh. Your family isn't gonna go full trumpet on you, they're your family.

You don't know my family, then.

Additionally, not every strong trump supporter suffers from siege mentality.

Nobody suffers from it, these are human beings we are talking about here.

In fact, I myself have noticed some of this personally wrt the election and the various anti-biden attacks - I grow tired of them, I judge them fake news, and I dismiss it. Turtling is a very human response.

And you have the self-awareness to recognise you are doing this, do you not? Surely you will be willing to admit that, if treated patiently and honestly, you are able to overcome that instinct and engage in an open conversation if the other person treats you as a human, yes? Why do you think this does not apply to others?

Well, I would say people suffer from prejudice, and siege mentality is a form of prejudice - one is overly defensive unconsciously. And the answer is that, like any prejudice, even if you treat someone as human and try and get through the shell of unconscious response modes, they're still going to be impacted by their biases. You can work around it, yes, but it makes changing minds and winning people over much harder. It's hard to talk someone who's worried about democrats raising taxes on them (even though they're in a bracket that wouldn't be affected) about how trump's administration has been an overall negative for them. (See: my family)

It gets worse when they're deathly afraid of "socialism".

Long story short, siege mentality removes the depth and breadth of any possible discussion, because you have to avoid the inherent defensiveness at play.

Edit: a good example is someone who distrusts CNN automatically because they've misreported about trump before, but trusts Fox news automatically.