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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4226651 times)

Quarque

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40095 on: October 04, 2020, 06:53:05 am »

What frightens me most about this dumpster fire of a presidency is the outright hostility to truth.

And it isn't new. The first clear example I remember was the shameless denial that smoking could cause cancer. Then came the shameless denial of climate change. And with the Trump cult, Qanon.. shameless denial of nearly everything. Reality is an opinion and Flat Earth is the new hipster.

Is the internet to blame? Social media? I don't know. My gut feeling is that we're all badly spoilt kids. Most of us live in luxury that the nobility in the dark ages could only dream of - in spite of the ever growing gap between the poor and the rich. You can feel entitled to believe whatever conspiracy you like and there are no consequences, you can still have your refrigerated food and eat it, you can still sleep in a warm bed in winter and watch whatever you like on a screen whenever you like, it doesn't hurt you..

Until it does, that is. In a way, Covid is nature catching up with our sense of entitlement to escape reality.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40096 on: October 04, 2020, 07:17:29 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:56:15 pm by dragdeler »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40097 on: October 04, 2020, 07:21:37 am »

[snip]
Your gut doesn't really track. People face consequences for anti-truth nonsense on the regular, from social rejection (job loss, etc., which the states being the pile of flaming shit that it is very much endangers reliable shelter and food) to hospitalization or death, and that happening to the folks in question doesn't snap them (or their fellows that witness one way or another) out of it particularly often.

Likely enough to result in people doubling down on it, even.

But yeah, it's 110% not the internet or social media or anything modern to begin with. That sort of shite is about as old as the written word, that we know of. If modern trappings are doing anything, it's the persistent effect of just making it easier to notice if you feel like looking. Less trouble to find out your neighbor's a raving nutjob when they're screeching it out on a public platform for all the world to see.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 07:23:30 am by Frumple »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40098 on: October 04, 2020, 08:24:11 am »

Alternative view:

It is 100% the internet.

The internet connects people with "misinformed" ideas who would otherwise never meet. Social media isolates people into small groups where they don't have to argue with people. Argument just leads to a mute or a block. While agreement gets you "likes", "friends", and the feeling of acceptance.

A lone "misinformed" person, faced with argument, and surrounded be people that disagree has a chance of changing their mind. Or at least learning to shut up about it to not be a pariah. Even if they don't, a lone "misinformed" person doesn't often convince other people to be "misinformed" with them. A "misinformed" person that finds like minded people that reinforce their inaccurate views loses that chance, and now they're a group, and groups can attract other people who might not be "misinformed", but might be vulnerable in some other way and just looking for social acceptance.

"Misinformed" people have always existed. And "Misinformed" people have always had a chance to find each other. So yes, it's as old as time. But what once was just the occasional rare thing is suddenly the standard.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40099 on: October 04, 2020, 08:31:04 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:56:19 pm by dragdeler »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40100 on: October 04, 2020, 09:06:28 am »

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Quarque

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40101 on: October 04, 2020, 09:20:51 am »

Alternative view:

It is 100% the internet.

The internet connects people with "misinformed" ideas who would otherwise never meet. Social media isolates people into small groups where they don't have to argue with people.
This is absolutely part of the problem.
What you describe here is something I witnessed up close. I once joined what seemed like an innocent place for shy people. It turned out to be an online meetup of self-described "incels" who were busy feeding each others anger and radicalizing each other. Exactly in the way you describe. I fled that place in a hurry, it was frightening. They way they were collectively developing their sense of victimhood and hostility toward the big bad world of slutty women and guys who get laid. I was not surprised at all with the news report of this incel guy who drove his car into random strangers.

Anyway, so yes I agree, part of it is definitely the internet. Not all of it, though.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40102 on: October 04, 2020, 09:37:47 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:56:24 pm by dragdeler »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40103 on: October 04, 2020, 10:47:33 am »

What frightens me most about this dumpster fire of a presidency is the outright hostility to truth.

I hope you were bothered by Obama's war on whistleblowers, then?  This is not unique to Trump.  It's just more obvious.  He does mostly the same things as every previous president.  He's just really, really bad at selling it to or hiding it from the public.  Not saying this to make Trump look better.  It just needs to be understood that Trump is not the problem.  He's just the next step in the direction things have been moving for a long time.

This is absolutely part of the problem.
What you describe here is something I witnessed up close. I once joined what seemed like an innocent place for shy people. It turned out to be an online meetup of self-described "incels" who were busy feeding each others anger and radicalizing each other. Exactly in the way you describe. I fled that place in a hurry, it was frightening. They way they were collectively developing their sense of victimhood and hostility toward the big bad world of slutty women and guys who get laid. I was not surprised at all with the news report of this incel guy who drove his car into random strangers.

And history had witch hunts.  This stuff isn't new.  Take it from someone who remembers life before the internet.

I do think the internet aids radicalization, due to the algorithmic aiding of echo chambers and the incredible availability of information both true and false.  But I think it works in every direction, not just in the raving mad conservative terrorist direction.  Lots of the conflict going on today is because of radicalization in a positive direction - the social global interconnectedness and availability of information on the internet has torn down decades or centuries of bullshit and propaganda.  Younger people today have grown up in a world where they're freely able to socialize with others from outside of their own country, and this alone has annihilated the viability of a lot of propaganda, xenophobia, jingoism, etc that plagued us for a very long time pre-internet.  Like we can't be expected to believe the lies told about the rest of the world's socialized healthcare systems anymore.  It just takes meeting one person online from Canada to know they don't have death panels or months long wait times for emergency treatments or whatever.

I think much of the radicalization in the conservative direction is backlash to that naturally happening.  Lots of older people don't like the illusions they grew up with being dispelled.  The younger conservative radicals are a much smaller, but very energized minority, and I think partly it's just natural that progress isn't one-dimensional and linear.  Some people will still fall prey to bullshit, and some bullshit will be adapted to the new environment, such as the incel phenomena.  But I think a bigger part of it is that material conditions for the majority of people keep getting worse.  They're overworked, underpaid, lonely, and psychologically abused by our power structures.  They're angry.  And that's good.  I'm angry, too.  And we all want to understand why we're in these situations.  Unfortunately, some people fall prey to misinformation that is deliberately designed to misdirect their anger.  And echo chambers are real.  Although, I think the neoliberal sterilization of our daily meatspace social lives is as much to blame for the impact of echo chambers as the social compartmentalization of the internet.  People still have to go to work, school, etc.  We compartmentalize our social lives online, but we still don't have much control over who we interact with in person.  But our meatspace socialization is so strictly controlled.  Everything's monitored and governed.  And stuff like talking politics with your co-workers is normally pretty taboo.  So we're denied what should be a moderating effect.  If this were pre-internet, the effect would absolutely be the same.  It's not like there was any material circumstance that caused people to socialize with larger, more diverse groups pre-internet.  More likely you wouldn't have the opportunity to do that even if you wanted.  And now we have stuff like Omegle.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40104 on: October 04, 2020, 10:49:22 am »

Watched about 2 minutes of the updates on Trump’s health from the medical team.

A great deal of “oh I’m so proud to be here what an honour yada yada” and apparently they need everyone to talk about different aspects of treatment rather than just one of the presumably highly trained medical personnel saying “yeah, shit’s cool so far, monitoring how it goes”
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40105 on: October 04, 2020, 12:13:20 pm »

What frightens me most about this dumpster fire of a presidency is the outright hostility to truth.

I hope you were bothered by Obama's war on whistleblowers, then?  This is not unique to Trump.  It's just more obvious.  He does mostly the same things as every previous president.  He's just really, really bad at selling it to or hiding it from the public.  Not saying this to make Trump look better.  It just needs to be understood that Trump is not the problem.  He's just the next step in the direction things have been moving for a long time.

This is absolutely part of the problem.
What you describe here is something I witnessed up close. I once joined what seemed like an innocent place for shy people. It turned out to be an online meetup of self-described "incels" who were busy feeding each others anger and radicalizing each other. Exactly in the way you describe. I fled that place in a hurry, it was frightening. They way they were collectively developing their sense of victimhood and hostility toward the big bad world of slutty women and guys who get laid. I was not surprised at all with the news report of this incel guy who drove his car into random strangers.

And history had witch hunts.  This stuff isn't new.  Take it from someone who remembers life before the internet.

I do think the internet aids radicalization, due to the algorithmic aiding of echo chambers and the incredible availability of information both true and false.  But I think it works in every direction, not just in the raving mad conservative terrorist direction.  Lots of the conflict going on today is because of radicalization in a positive direction - the social global interconnectedness and availability of information on the internet has torn down decades or centuries of bullshit and propaganda.  Younger people today have grown up in a world where they're freely able to socialize with others from outside of their own country, and this alone has annihilated the viability of a lot of propaganda, xenophobia, jingoism, etc that plagued us for a very long time pre-internet.  Like we can't be expected to believe the lies told about the rest of the world's socialized healthcare systems anymore.  It just takes meeting one person online from Canada to know they don't have death panels or months long wait times for emergency treatments or whatever.

I think much of the radicalization in the conservative direction is backlash to that naturally happening.  Lots of older people don't like the illusions they grew up with being dispelled.  The younger conservative radicals are a much smaller, but very energized minority, and I think partly it's just natural that progress isn't one-dimensional and linear.  Some people will still fall prey to bullshit, and some bullshit will be adapted to the new environment, such as the incel phenomena.  But I think a bigger part of it is that material conditions for the majority of people keep getting worse.  They're overworked, underpaid, lonely, and psychologically abused by our power structures.  They're angry.  And that's good.  I'm angry, too.  And we all want to understand why we're in these situations.  Unfortunately, some people fall prey to misinformation that is deliberately designed to misdirect their anger.  And echo chambers are real.  Although, I think the neoliberal sterilization of our daily meatspace social lives is as much to blame for the impact of echo chambers as the social compartmentalization of the internet.  People still have to go to work, school, etc.  We compartmentalize our social lives online, but we still don't have much control over who we interact with in person.  But our meatspace socialization is so strictly controlled.  Everything's monitored and governed.  And stuff like talking politics with your co-workers is normally pretty taboo.  So we're denied what should be a moderating effect.  If this were pre-internet, the effect would absolutely be the same.  It's not like there was any material circumstance that caused people to socialize with larger, more diverse groups pre-internet.  More likely you wouldn't have the opportunity to do that even if you wanted.  And now we have stuff like Omegle.

Radicalized echo chambers aren't limited to the right. It's also a feature of the left and despite what it might sound like from within those echo chambers, they're just as dangerous and just as harmful as anything the right does.

I'd also argue the anger is more a symptom of the internet, media in general and those echo chambers rather than vice versa. People are fed misinformation to be angry about. Fed rare and extreme examples which are held up as "This is what's happening and if it's not happening to you it's only a matter of time. If <the enemy> gets what they want."

It's much harder to be that angry if you're only dealing with the things you come in contact with face to face. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more difficult, it's much more complicated. The things that make you angry typically are multifaceted and have redeeming factors rather than the examples held up on media or the internet where the only side you're given information on about someone is the thing that makes you the most angry.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40106 on: October 04, 2020, 12:19:12 pm »

The doctors said he had a high fever on Friday, and his oxygen dropped on Friday and on Saturday, and he was given oxygen on Friday (they are unclear if it was given on Saturday). His oxygen levels dropped to 93%, below the 95% lower limit considered normal for his cohort. Trump has been given Dexamethasone, his third experimental treatment after the Regeneron monoclonal antibodies and the remedsvir. (Of note is the fact that dexamethasone is specifically prescribed for severe cases of COVID-19 and is not recommended for mild or moderate cases; in fact it could hamper immune response if given early in the illness.) What is unusual is that the former two are treatments intended to be given early in the course of illness, dexamethasone is supposed to be given late, to control a patients immune response. They claim he is doing better and could be released from the Hospital as early as Monday. The combination of the above has left me very uncertain as to what the timeline of his illness is. Even if he had symptoms on Wednesday, the timing is odd to me as I have been given to understand it takes seven to ten days for the illness to escalate to a point where life is threatened.
Quote from: Dr. Sean P. Conley, the White House physician
“I didn’t want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction, and in doing so, you know, it came off that we were trying to hide something, which wasn’t necessarily true,”
I've not a damn clue how to interpret this statement. It appears to be apologizing for their rosy outlook on Saturday, but everything else...
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40107 on: October 04, 2020, 12:23:18 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Sean P. Conley, the White House physician
“I didn’t want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction, and in doing so, you know, it came off that we were trying to hide something, which wasn’t necessarily true,”
I've not a damn clue how to interpret this statement. It appears to be apologizing for their rosy outlook on Saturday, but everything else...

The virus is listening. They were trying to hide their strategy and feed it misinformation so that it wouldn't know what they were doing to fight it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40108 on: October 04, 2020, 12:25:31 pm »

It's gonna reach that rare level known as Historically Funny if all these desperation plays end up giving Trump a heart attack by themselves.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #40109 on: October 04, 2020, 12:27:43 pm »

I don’t know if they’re just not very good at this because they don’t regularly do press conferences to tell the world about someone’s medical situation, or if they’re receiving some pressure from the politicos to not tell the whole story.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.
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