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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4229052 times)

Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39000 on: August 31, 2020, 02:36:22 pm »

Some people say the left is lost to infighting, when they aren't calling us dogmatic zombies.  (The NPC meme for a recent example, but it's been in the playbook for decades)

The left has disagreements because we're looking for solutions that work for everyone, and that's a complicated problem.  The libertarians and fascists just shoot at each other.
Late edit:  Oh right and the rest of us, obviously
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 03:04:27 pm by Rolan7 »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39001 on: August 31, 2020, 02:36:41 pm »

Which is to say, you come off upset that people disregarded your previous warnings, so you must now argue that the current situation is not a change to in order to justify yourself. More bluntly: you're essentially a hipster, gatekeeping outrage at horrible acts because you feel like if you let any one thing be outrageous, that any individual action is "crossing the line", than it will diminish everything else you've seen in your life that was horrible. You are not permitting shades of evil because you feel that the shades are too evil as they are, and, I sense, you do not have the energy to be further outraged.

I have mixed agreement with your character assessment.

I kinda worry sometimes that I've turned hipster in the "I was paying attention to these things before it was cool" sense, and that it might pervert the way I engage with things.  I disagree with the gatekeeping part, though.  One of my oft repeated messages that you're leaving out is I'm delighted that people are finally outraged, and I don't deny that the things that are happening are disgusting and outrageous.  I felt bewildered and alone in an outrageous world devoid of outrage for 15 years prior to 2016.  I don't feel that way anymore.

I am definitely exhausted, though.  Every time someone dies at the hands of police or a protest get brutalized and fascism looms in the background, I see everyone else freaking out all over the internet.  But I admit I've become quite numb to it.  You can't see the same news every day for 20 years and continue to feel the same intensity of emotional reaction forever.  Doesn't mean I no longer care.  But it does mean I don't relate to the heightened sense of panic and novelty that every else feels.

And yes... I am very bitter that I spent 15 years following 9/11 telling everyone I knew that this is where we were going to find ourselves, and now that we're here, everyone acts surprised.  I'm bitter that I've been telling people since the Iraq anti-war protests that there's something seriously fucking wrong with law enforcement and the oppression of political dissent in this country, yet even my own family acts like this is new as if they never heard a word I said.  I'm bitter that I've been raising warnings as to my experiences encountering increasing numbers of increasingly bold and energized nazis and linking this trend to government rhetoric and favoritism since the mid-2000's, yet now everyone's like "where did all these nazis come from?!?!"  And so on.  Make of my bitterness whatever you wish.  It's just an emotion.  An understandable one, I think.  We all have them.

I also take issue with the "shades of evil" part.  When literally the same things are happening, I don't understand where I'm supposed to see the shading.  Maybe it's the open public expression of fascist sentiment behind the actions that is supposed to make them more evil, but I always saw that.  Being openly fascist and doing fascist things isn't any more evil than being closeted fascist and doing fascist things.  And yes, there does also come a point where shades of evil may exist, but are all so dark that it's meaningless to distinguish them.  Like I was arguing with someone the other day about the "harm reduction" narrative, and at one point in the conversation, made a joke about Biden's "police should shoot unarmed people in the legs" speech.  The guy jumped on that with "I'd rather have someone shooting me in the legs than in the head!  See - that's harm reduction!"  And I was like "Maybe when you're reduced to arguing the finer points of being shot at, it's time to realize that your approach to politics isn't working in your favor."

Whatever your interpretation of my energy and feelings that I can honestly own up to, I can say pretty confidently that the reason I've been repeating the same message to everyone in the Trump era, is I worry that real problems are not going to be addressed and things will get worse.  I still believe Trump as an individual is not the problem.  There are more who truly acknowledge the nature of our problems than I've ever known before and there is potential right now for real powerful movements.  But what I see from the majority of discourse taking place is that most still associate the things they see happening right now exclusively with Trump.  What I 100% expect to happen if Trump loses is that majority will go back to sleep.  They will be soothed by an improvement in aesthetics.  Most of the exact same things will continue to happen, but the public's attention will largely no longer be drawn to them and awareness will drop off.  Most will find themselves exhausted from the last 4 years of hyper-vigilance and panic and struggling to untangle labyrinthine media stories like Russiagate, and their attention to politics will collapse as one would at the end of a long sprint when the urgency is no longer there.  The potential we have right now for forming movements which could actually address root problems will be part violently crushed/part subverted and tamed over the next 4 years as those soothed by aesthetics return to finding themselves confused and disturbed by the ruckus of activists again when the issues they're fighting recede once more into the background.  Biden's administration will take advantage of the malaise to solidify the increase of authoritarian power that took place during Trump's term, while being more quiet and selective about exercising those powers, and lay the groundwork for the next cycle to produce another fascist who is even worse, both in character and in powers available to them.  Global crisis and inequality will continue to accelerate, prompting an even greater portion of the populace to latch onto the next candidate who offers validation and a direction to their anger.  Everyone who's not a fascist or radical leftist will panic again and their political memories will fail when needed to understand why they're in that situation.  This is exactly what happened after Bush, and the rhetoric I see from pearl-clutching liberals and moderate conservatives tells me it will happen again.

On historical novelty: Authoritarianism often manifests as a general support of authoritarian leaders no matter who they are, but it can also manifest as support for a particular authoritarian. This distinction is significant, as (in theory) an authoritarian idealogue has standards: they have an idea of authoritarianism which any particular autocrat may or may not live up to. But an authoritarian loyalist does not have this. They support a person, and their standards are that person. By definition such a thing cannot ever be wrong no matter their actions. This is the historically unique thing occuring in the US today; whatever other things they may wield, lent to them by history.

The narcissism of the populist authoritarian demands that things be about them. Whatever it relies on, it claims those things for its own, expands to fill the entire field of "valid" thought, and anything outside of it is no longer relevant. It is those things because it claims to be all that is good, and all that it is not is not good. It is not a single part, but rather "pervades and regulates the whole."  This means that you, with your position, are in essence denying that they are what say they are and freely admit to doing: totalizing. Making everything about them. While historically they are wrong because not everything is not about them, they are very correct in that their existance makes all contemporary debates, in essence, referundums on themselves. With them or against them. This is what people are responding to, ultimately.

TL;DR: I mean, Trump is an egomaniacal narcissist and a reality-show celebrity. How can one claim to be surprised he's made the national debate all about him? There is no room for matters of policy and debate, there is only "do you like him?" That, in-and-of-itself, is the very essence of Trumpism, which otherwise lacks real positions.

I don't think the fascist movement in America is as married to Trump as a cult figure as you're making out here.  They don't love him because of him.  They love him because he offers an environment of validation and permissibility to what they have been feeling and wanting for decades.  All they have to do is cheer for him, and he'll cheer for them.  It's a relationship of convenience, and the USA's fascist movement is very comfortable with those.  Bush's administration was also extremely fascist.  Fascists had no problem dropping their love for him as soon as he was no longer convenient to them, but they didn't drop their fascism at the same time.  Remember when crowds at McCain's rallies had a habit of chanting calls for political violence, and he refused to ask them to stop?  They never went anywhere.  And if he had asked them to stop, he would have immediately ceased to be their candidate.  Trump has repeatedly been put under the same pressure by his fascist base.  The Oath Keepers put out this statement just yesterday.  They don't need a sympathetic president to keep growing and preparing for civil war.  They only need to be ignored enough, as they were until 2016.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 02:41:54 pm by SalmonGod »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39002 on: August 31, 2020, 02:57:05 pm »

I know exactly how you feel Salmon.

I remember being in college as sept 11 happened.  I remember being absolutely aghast that people were actually CONSIDERING allowing the fucking patriot act to pass--- They kept telling me, "Oh, it's temporary! They wont keep it, it wont be abused!"

and then there was FISA court scandal after scandal-- when we actually LEARNED about it-- Then later there was Snowden's expose' about all the shit going on with the powers expanded by Patriot act.


Nobody fucking listened. Nobody cared. They were scared of the bad terrorists, and the government promised to make the bad terrorists go away! 


Those who trade essential freedoms for the illusion of safety, deserve neither freedom nor safety.  I watched my country decide it deserved neither that day.  Prior to that, I watched it act like a pretentious douche canoe overseas for many years as I was in highschool.  I was told by my folks, who despite having very strong conservitard leanings, actually did keep a pretty sharp eye on the bullshit (they just did not really appreciate that the conservitards were the ones really doing the bold-faced bullshit--- they were much too worried about the lieberals doing it all sneaky like.) and informed me of all the bullshit that had gone on prior to my awareness of political BS.


I really hoped that Sanders would get the nomination, and floorstomp this bullshit.  Instead, we got that mildly demented oldschool republican in democrat clothing, Joe Biden.  Still representative of all the corruption in this country, just a few steps back from the "THIS IS FINE!" (house on fucking fire) that is Donald J. Trump.

Normally I would cite "I don't vote for space mutants."  But this time, its space mutant, or Azathoth, the crawling chaos at the center of the universe, surrounded by the mad flutists.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39003 on: August 31, 2020, 03:23:22 pm »

A great way to screw best murrica this november is to actually half-arsedly do mail in ballet fraud en-masse.  Make it really damned easy to catch in significant enough numbers.  Just the stuff existing will give Trump the thin veneer of justification to declare all of it as fraud and try to null the mail-in ballets or just declare he won't leave in January.

His base will eat it up.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39004 on: August 31, 2020, 03:28:34 pm »

He declared the 2016 election a sham in the harshest way, right up until he somehow won.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39005 on: August 31, 2020, 04:02:34 pm »

A great way to screw best murrica this november is to actually half-arsedly do mail in ballet fraud en-masse.  Make it really damned easy to catch in significant enough numbers.  Just the stuff existing will give Trump the thin veneer of justification to declare all of it as fraud and try to null the mail-in ballets or just declare he won't leave in January.

His base will eat it up.

How I imagine it going.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39006 on: August 31, 2020, 04:11:00 pm »

Is perfectly good ballot!
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39007 on: August 31, 2020, 04:32:18 pm »

Oh Jorji, for how many times I rejected and detained and threw your ass out of the country, you were still a cool enough bro to do me a solid at the end of the game.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39008 on: August 31, 2020, 04:45:12 pm »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:40:59 pm by dragdeler »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39009 on: August 31, 2020, 05:04:41 pm »

Oh Jorji, for how many times I rejected and detained and threw your ass out of the country, you were still a cool enough bro to do me a solid at the end of the game.

You get a citation for it!
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39010 on: August 31, 2020, 09:38:02 pm »

Spoiler: spoilered for size (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 09:41:21 pm by misko27 »
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39011 on: August 31, 2020, 09:54:22 pm »

Spoiler: spoilered for size (click to show/hide)
You mentioned naming a department where the bureaucracy and government is coming together?If I read it right, maybe the articles will help. Gov. Agency Name: DNR (Department of Natural Resources)

Other question, who are the vultures? Members of third parties? Business owners?
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39012 on: September 01, 2020, 01:01:50 am »

Being openly fascist and doing fascist things isn't any more evil than being closeted fascist and doing fascist things. 
I feel like this is the substance of our disagreement.

Maybe so.

In my view, open fascism is altogether worse. Fascism historically always prefers the more secretive angles of gaining power and influence, because as Hannah Arendt once said it is the reasonable individual who is obligated to facts, it is the fascist who has the right, to play. The entire idea of that, though, is that they believe that if things were ever laid out openly, then people reject them out-of-hand and so they must operate through disguises, intermediaries and secrecy. The fact that they are not anymore tells me they perceive their strength as such that they no longer fear this, that they have enough strength to act openly and not be immediately condemned; they are normalized in the public mind, and it is a small step from there to victory.

Put another way: when you have to hide crimes and horrible things, there is the assumption (on the part of the actors invovled, the public at large, etc) that they are shameful; they are something to hide through obfuscation, distraction, etc. It inherently makes people distrusting of you, it provides the possibility of exposure. While they have to hide there is only so much they can do, only so fast they can move. But now it's been embraced. Now they ask openly for people to support these things. And if people agree? If you can't beat a vampire in daylight, if you can't beat where they are weakest, they have won, completely and utterly.

But in my view, almost everything that's happening now was happening before.  So the idea that we've lost something because they're no longer being secretive doesn't add up to me.  They had abandoned even being careful long before 2016.  It's debatable whether it could even be said they were in hiding.  For a few years before Trump, fascists were only hiding in the sense of playing language games with labels, while being almost completely transparent about their actual beliefs.  But the average American is crippled by a whole suite of sensibilities that make them especially blind to such games.  To the point that a police officer could plaster themselves with tattoos of fascist symbology, openly associate with fascist groups on Facebook, and have a 20 year professional history of brutalizing black people and protesters, but as soon as someone would dare to call that officer a fascist when they finally land themselves on national news, all a troll would have to do to flip that narrative is throw in a couple lazy old pro-cop stock lines and everyone would cry Godwin's Law and chase the person who used an accurate label based on hard evidence out of the conversation as the true threat to free speech and civility.

In your vampire analogy, the vampires have been walking around in daylight sucking people's blood in plain view wearing "Not a Vampire" t-shirts for the last 10 years at least.  Now they're still sucking blood in plain sight, but they've changed into "Vampires aren't so bad actually, but still don't call me one" t-shirts.  You're alarmed by the change in t-shirts.  I'm alarmed that most couldn't see the vampires until they changed t-shirts, still believe they weren't around before, and their first priority is to make them put the "Not a Vampire" shirts back on.  It's reason to believe we will continue to be plagued by vampires.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't disagree with much here.  My issue is that if Trump blinked out of existence tomorrow, American fascism and the country's accelerating movement in that direction would survive.  I don't disagree that Trump is bad.  I don't disagree with removing him from power.  I don't disagree that he motivates them and their power consolidates around him.  My message is that the majority of non-fascist Americans seem to think that he is personally the key to solving the country's fascism problem.  Every day I see references to "Trump's America" and current events which have been familiar to me for a long time presented as if they're novel to Trump's presidency.  That's where I have concerns, and why I insist on being a broken record on this point.  I don't want The People to remove Trump from power and then consider the battle won, only to be confronted again a few years later by an even stronger fascist front.  He needs to be thought of as the Monster of the Week, not the Final Boss.  We have a popular authoritarian because there was a pre-existing popular hunger for one.  That hunger will remain and produce another.  If we dethrone Trump, but we do not confront the systemic issues which inevitably evolve into fascism or culturally reflect on our faulty perception and sensibilities, I believe this is guaranteed to be our fate.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 01:17:10 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39013 on: September 01, 2020, 07:46:01 pm »

Trump's had an odd outburst. Even odd for Trump:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1300811758051954695

Quote
It never ends! Now they are trying to say that your favorite President, me, went to Walter Reed Medical Center, having suffered a series of mini-strokes. Never happened to THIS candidate - FAKE NEWS. Perhaps they are referring to another candidate from another Party!

Quote
as the Washington Post noted, “no media anywhere had reported that Trump had a series of mini-strokes”.

Apparently it's related to something that was published in a book a while ago, and was brought up in some obscure tweet by someone else. How thin skinned can you be, and how unaware of the Streissand Effect.

EDIT should give sources, this story is actually confusing since Trump may have concocted this himself somehow from unrelated previous mentions:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/trump-mini-stroke-tweet_au_5f4ee5f2c5b69eb5c035cf92

It's a little hard to piece together. Some news sources have mentioned the Walter Reed Medical Center visit that was in the book, while someone else a while ago tweeted hearsay that Trump had, at some point, suffered mini-strokes. But as far as I can tell, Trump is the first person to explicitly put these two things together.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 08:23:51 pm by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #39014 on: September 01, 2020, 07:47:56 pm »

<double post>
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