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[dragdeler]

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[wierd]

Quite correct.  I do not believe I have ever said anything other than 'Trump is a symptom of the disorder, not the disorder itself.'


Nazi Germany embraced Hitler, because it had social ills. (Namely, it had inferiority complexes and systemic financial difficulties stemming from the sanctions imposed upon it after the first world war, which the citizenry were EAGER to have any reason, any reason at all, to no longer contend with, even if such reasons were outright lies.  See also, current societal issues with the US, and its ever increasing irrelevance in the global sphere, coupled with its systemic financial problems and civil disfunctions, which it seeks any reason-- any reason at all, to avoid having to deal with in a proper, systemic fashion that actually addresses root causes--- In both cases, the most easily consumed action, is to create and then blame scapegoats, which then leads to a trend to do so by the political elite, a division of the populace, and then a populist movement that installs a dictator that promises to "fix" the problem.)


The US has Trump, because it has social ills.

We will end up like Nazi Germany (if not worse), if we do not confront those social ills in a proper and meaningful fashion.

[Reelya]

https://eand.co/we-dont-know-how-to-warn-you-any-harder-america-is-dying-26ff80912391?gi=1871db38b54d

I cannot tell you how crushingly depressing it is to be bombarded daily with so many messages from so many people expressing this form of alarmism, and every single one seeming to believe that the things they're alarmed about began with and are a result of Trump himself.

The kindling can be there but it takes someone to set it off. It's not a given however. Take Germany for example. The kindling was there in the late 1920s, but that doesn't mean that Nazi Germany was a foregone conclusion. By about 1932 it was but only because they let one of those people run the government.

[dragdeler]

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[SalmonGod]

https://eand.co/we-dont-know-how-to-warn-you-any-harder-america-is-dying-26ff80912391?gi=1871db38b54d

I cannot tell you how crushingly depressing it is to be bombarded daily with so many messages from so many people expressing this form of alarmism, and every single one seeming to believe that the things they're alarmed about began with and are a result of Trump himself.

The kindling can be there but it takes someone to set it off. It's not a given however. Take Germany for example. The kindling was there in the late 1920s, but that doesn't mean that Nazi Germany was a foregone conclusion. By about 1932 it was but only because they let one of those people run the government.

Almost nothing new is happening.  Political persecution.  Brutalizing protests.  Hate crimes.  Mutual aid between civilian fascists and law enforcement.  Kidnappings.  Flouting rule of law.  Corruption.  Undermining democracy.  All these things people associate with Trump happened also under Bush and Obama.  The only exception I can think of is police openly encouraging militia groups to participate in violence against protesters on the streets.

The kindling had been there longer than my parents have been alive.  I'd argue it was lit in the response to 9/11.  By the time Trump took office, the fire was already raging.  The only reason everyone suddenly notices is he's the first to openly brag about throwing fuel on it.

[Starver]

(Remember, everyone, that you have a Godwin-given right to talk about this subject, but it's all too easy to just go for direct comparison as a knee-jerk/goose-step false-equivalence... )

[wierd]

I would say it goes back further still, way into the 1960s, with the international reduction of postwar US hegemony on the Horizon. See also, how the US started to really ratchet up bullshit in other countries, and how that bullshit has systemically come home to roost in every decade since, with 911 being just a very high profile manifestation of that bullshit coming home to roost.

The systemic issue is the fear and doubt the US leadership has at not being "Number One!", and all the excuses it has made both domestically (foriegners takin all the jerbs!, et al), and abroad (gotta accept our deals! No compromises, we're barely breakin even and stuffs!, and or, what out for those commies!)

Those excuses have shaped us politics into a monster.

[Reelya]

The Godwin rule was always stated not to apply if the topic was something relevant. "Will the nation slip into authoritarianism because of a populist leader or is it an inevitable consequence the system?" is clearly a topic where discussing Hitler's rise to power is in fact relevant.

[wierd]

Also important, none of the participants are in danger of being called nazis. That comparison is being reserved for modern fascists and proponents of modern fascism.

[martinuzz]

Trump is the second worse thing that happened to the US since WW2, only marginally losing to a first place for the Disney Channel.

[dragdeler]

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[wierd]

It was a psychotic karen long before then.

See also, McCarthy Era.  We literally locked people up in concentration camps for "Seditious reading material."

[SalmonGod]

I would say it goes back further still, way into the 1960s, with the international reduction of postwar US hegemony on the Horizon. See also, how the US started to really ratchet up bullshit in other countries, and how that bullshit has systemically come home to roost in every decade since, with 911 being just a very high profile manifestation of that bullshit coming home to roost.

The systemic issue is the fear and doubt the US leadership has at not being "Number One!", and all the excuses it has made both domestically (foriegners takin all the jerbs!, et al), and abroad (gotta accept our deals! No compromises, we're barely breakin even and stuffs!, and or, what out for those commies!)

Those excuses have shaped us politics into a monster.

Yeah, it all depends on subjective perspective of where to draw the line.  The problems we're facing have been deeply embedded in the USA's DNA since its founding.  But in terms of modern incarnation, somewhere in the 60's is where I was thinking too (my parents were born in the 60's).  When the civil rights movement was partially subverted/tamed and partially violently crushed, but succeeded at enough high profile legislative goals and cultural influence to plant seeds of resentment among USA's violently racist collective psyche, without meaningfully weakening racism's influence over power structures.  At the same time as post-war prosperity and post-new deal social contract began to show its first cracks under the pressure of cold war propaganda and rising neoliberalism.

We just want to see the ideals they keep touting in exercise, not be dangled like a carrot on a stick whenever somebody has to make a speech.

Why would republican uncle bob care about other people if his own health is negotiable? Neoliberalism, or austerity, this cold hearted, anonymous dehumanisation apparantly leads people to prefer to be abused in affect than to be neglected. As long as one barks back the dogs have a conversation, exile on the other hand, nobody can handle that.


Well when did it start? Certainly decoupling salaries from productivity didn't help no matter how many cheap shitwares they can cough up to maintain the impression of a relative buying potential... But I'd also lean towards 9.11 that shit made your country into a psychotic Karen.

It was a psychotic karen long before then.

See also, McCarthy Era.  We literally locked people up in concentration camps for "Seditious reading material."

There's no shortage of fucked up shit in USA's history.  We've always had a fascism problem.  But 9/11 definitely turned us fucking rabid in recent historical terms.

[dragdeler]

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[Starver]

The Godwin rule was always stated not to apply if the topic was something relevant.

Which is why I said you have a Godwin-given right. But just like "masks are literally like Hitler!!!111oneoneone" from one side, I thought I'd forestall any drift into that from other directions. Maybe I read a message tone wrongly, and probably it wasn't my call to make. Shutting up now. About this at least.