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[Darkond2100]

Yeah, after I go through adding all of Taffer's changes, I'm going to add yours as well. Any tips?

[Darkond2100]

Giant animal versions always have COPY_TAGS_FROM, so why put in the work of duplicating tags like [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER]? I don't think it's one of the tags that's excluded, like caste tags.

[Sver]

Yeah, after I go through adding all of Taffer's changes, I'm going to add yours as well. Any tips?

Well, compared to the version of my mod previously merged with Revised, you'd need to update attacks for all melee weapons, as well as ammo. You may or may not want to update MATERIAL_SIZE values (price to produce, in bars of metal) accordingly - Taffer had his own way about it, as some player's may find my values extreme, especially when it comes to armor.

I've made a couple of fixes/tweaks in b_detail_plan_default.txt (highlighted by "Sver"), which are pretty straightforward improvements.

Then there are some more controversial changes in body_default.txt, namely, facial features getting integrated inside the head (to make them covered by helmets and targeted less). There are also thickened joints, which I suggest to include for the overall balance.

A whole bunch of stuff got changed in material_template_default.txt since then. So much that it would probably be best to use a comparision tool for updating.

Outside of combat/damage balance itself, I've made some small tweaks to civs, such as giving [AMBUSHER] to humans and making dogs usable by humans and dwarves as siege minions (through the [ANIMAL] tag). I've also revamped elven weapons to have them rely on certain army composition rather than overpowered sticks. Again, may or may not wish to include these.

[Loki333]

I love everything this does, along with Sver's combat mod.  I am curious about a few of masterwork's features though; primarily the new workshops and a couple of the additional invaders.  Any word on how they may interact with installing these over masterwork's pack?  I would have thought someone must have tried, but can't find any reference to compatibility between them anywhere. 

[Darkond2100]

I love everything this does, along with Sver's combat mod.  I am curious about a few of masterwork's features though; primarily the new workshops and a couple of the additional invaders.  Any word on how they may interact with installing these over masterwork's pack?  I would have thought someone must have tried, but can't find any reference to compatibility between them anywhere. 

I've got an okay understanding of this. Revised makes a lot of changes to creature and tissue templates in b_detail_plan_default.txt, body_default.txt, and c_variation_default.txt. These changes will make pretty much all creatures tougher, and instances of combat will last longer. Any modded creatures or races that masterwork adds to the game willl get these changes.
But Revised also goes back into every specific humanoid race and nerfs their unarmed melee attacks. Removing Scratching and biting from many humanoids, and adding a velocity limitation on strikes. Any modded creatures or races that masterwork adds to the game won't get these changes.
As a result, non-vanilla creatures will be subjectively stronger.
And masterwork weapons aren't balanced in the same way as Revised weapons. Masterwork weapons have very different costs and effectiveness in combat.

[DerMeister]

Monogendred humanoids must be monogendered. Just make another way to reproduce. Example harpy can do interaction transform spouse conversion target and female into harpy. Or make two very different castes, example male is satyr, female is driade.

[Loki333]

But Revised also goes back into every specific humanoid race and nerfs their unarmed melee attacks. Removing Scratching and biting from many humanoids, and adding a velocity limitation on strikes. Any modded creatures or races that masterwork adds to the game won't get these changes.
As a result, non-vanilla creatures will be subjectively stronger.
And masterwork weapons aren't balanced in the same way as Revised weapons. Masterwork weapons have very different costs and effectiveness in combat.

So I wouldn't need to merge anything manually?  I was concerned about it creating crashes if it's expecting stuff to be there that isn't.  I don't know anything about the way Masterwork is packaged and how checking different parts on and off in its loader actually works behind the scenes. 
I don't expect too many invaders to come unarmed, and scratching and biting don't sound inappropriate for demons/naga/raptormen.  Masterwork's weapons and armor and extra creatures are no big loss. 

I am interested in the slower learning/farming and more leather mods.  The key thing for me is the workshops though.  Specifically the library, liaison's office, and the finishing forge.  I assume Masterwork's workshops wouldn't have the updated costs for things like armor though. 

[Rose]

This mod looks interesting. I'll be watching this thread.

[Warlord255]

This mod looks interesting. I'll be watching this thread.

Sadly, Taffer's currently on an indefinite haitus. If you're looking for more polish, however, I've got a sanctioned spinoff of this mod going in a mod of my own: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173907.0

Notable additions thus far include standardized animalman armor sizes, animalman skill/ability boosts, tons of vocalizations, sneaky snakes, and enjoyment-syndrome cheese which has been surprisingly rewarding to play with. Wierder, less vanilla options (like animalman invader civs) are offered as optional modules. Give it a try if you like!

[Taffer]

Taffer shudders and begins to move! (No promises of restarted development of either my graphics or my mod yet, but if you like my work then you can probably take this post as a good sign)

Is anybody interested in helping me sort out the Expanded Dictionary, even if it's just in an advisory role? I was going to quietly plug away at it but it's bloody tedious and it's not obvious to me which words I should excise and which I should leave alone. I like the Expanded dictionary too much to delete it, but it obviously needs some care and attention.

For example: equator. Worth keeping? It's not used as a symbol for anything and while yes, it's a word (maybe even a familiar one), if it's just in the purely random pool it'll never be used in context anyway. That's just one example of many.

[Splint]

I'd like to help, but my track record for helping with things is spotty.

But regardless, specific colors, common items, or body parts that are missing would probably be work keeping. But specific colored-block stuff that I think I saw and other overly specific hyphenated things would probably be worth dumping entirely.

[Taffer]

Giant animal versions always have COPY_TAGS_FROM, so why put in the work of duplicating tags like [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER]? I don't think it's one of the tags that's excluded, like caste tags.

Will fix if I do restart development. Thank you. Any excuse to get rid of unnecessary deviations from the vanilla raws.

[Taffer]

I'm messing with this right now, using the latest version on the git to update Meph's tileset LNP, which has an older version.
When was [SHELL], [ITEMS_HARD] and [ITEMS_SCALED] removed from [MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CHITIN_TEMPLATE] in the material_template_default? Was this because chitin was made useable as a leather, and didn't need to be a shell?

Huh, thanks for noticing!

It appears that Taffer wanted to do something with it, like a unique type of chitin-leather (there is a template for it), but either rolled back or didn't quite finish, as the template is not used anywhere and chitin just yields regular leather.

Personally, I think shell-chitin is more fun and useful.

I removed SHELL, ITEMS_HARD, and ITEMS_SCALED from chitin because I was watching Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and I thought crafting chitin pants would be a pretty awesome feature. I stopped using the specific chitin leather material because I realized I just didn't care much if the leather was actually different in protection levels from regular leather and I didn't want the headache of an additional material to balance. I'll have to decide what to do with it: I kind of like chitin pants though.

Monogendred humanoids must be monogendered. Just make another way to reproduce. Example harpy can do interaction transform spouse conversion target and female into harpy. Or make two very different castes, example male is satyr, female is driade.

I disagree: having two genders for every monogendered creature is one of my favourite things about Revised. Sorry! If it's any consolation, the automatons are still monogender. I'm open to differentiating the castes I introduced better, and I welcome suggestions.

[Wannabehero]

I removed SHELL, ITEMS_HARD, and ITEMS_SCALED from chitin because I was watching Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and I thought crafting chitin pants would be a pretty awesome feature. I stopped using the specific chitin leather material because I realized I just didn't care much if the leather was actually different in protection levels from regular leather and I didn't want the headache of an additional material to balance. I'll have to decide what to do with it: I kind of like chitin pants though.

As a personal fan of chitin-based clothing/armor, I support the concept in its entirety. I like to look to art from the Elder Scrolls games as great examples of the concept of chitin armor and clothing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A particular balance issue with giving chitin the SHELL tag is that crafting items will only use 1 unit of chitin per item.  A large chitinous creature (like a GCS) will provide enough units of chitin to craft a lot of pants, breastplates, helms, or what-have-you. It's a little out of balance compared to the 1 leather you get from a similar sized Grizzly Bear (leather balance is addressed in other mods, which I know you know).  Chitinous creatures provide a boat-load of crafting materials if using the SHELL tag.  BONE is a little better, as I think crafting bone items will use multiple bones per item.

As to material property balance, I say give chitin essentially identical properties to bone and call it a day.  In my personal mods (which includes chitin armor), I gave chitin slightly higher Shear/Tensile/Torsion/Bending properties over bone (but still less than copper), and identical Impact/Compression properties as bone. Its been very pleasing to play with dwarves sporting *Giant Cave Spider Chitin Helm* and -Giant Horseshoe Crab Chitin Breastplate- as lightweight training armor and general civilian militia garb.

[Taffer]

Giant animal versions always have COPY_TAGS_FROM, so why put in the work of duplicating tags like [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER]? I don't think it's one of the tags that's excluded, like caste tags.

After looking into it, this isn't actually duplicated. If you look, the creatures that have [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:SCALES_YIELD_LEATHER] don't have it in their base variations: this is because the base creature is too small to yield leather. Creatures that are large enough to have it in the base creature definition don't duplicate it in the humanoid and giant variations. Let me know if this isn't the case.

I'm going to get rid of scale leather entirely though, to be honest. Mod-added scaly creatures and randomly generated scaly creatures won't yield scale leather either, and I like consistency. It's also an unnecessary deviation from vanilla, IMO.