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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 142177 times)

Rolepgeek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1140 on: December 30, 2016, 01:02:10 am »

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ONE article doesn't represent the breadth of possible knowledge

It is more that I don't want to step onto hate :P

The only time I read a anti-trans article I thought had genuinely good information in it... Was more about the success rate of gender realignment, which was stunningly low and suggests a larger problem with either gender dysphoria and/or surgery made to help with it and/or expectations surrounding it.

Which I'd also look up... but I have a feeling looking up "How unrealistic expectations cause post-operation depression in trans people" wouldn't get me search results I'd want.

---

Anyhow I'd also chime in, because I need to be overt, that yes gender dysphoria is a thing. So don't worry about it.

My whole "Hyper femininity" pondering was more of an aside as well as wondering WHY that happens.
Compensation, is my guess. Or celebration. Essentially, now they get to be a woman, and they've been holding that in for a long time, so they're reveling in it. Or they just really like being able to and take greater joy in it than someone for whom it's routine. And, of course, there's some who just are really feminine and it stands out more because it's maybe less expected. A woman being hyper-feminine maybe isn't considered hyper-feminine even if it's the same behaviors, because of the people they're around or because they're used to it and can do it in a way that's not really noticeable.

That's called being genderfluid, and it's not as deeply rooted into the core parts of the brain. It's not dysphoria, though, unless they actually feel uncomfortable in their body as-is, and deeply so, when they feel one gender. If I remember right it's something along the lines of switching circuits? I don't know enough on the subject. I'm somewhat genderfluid I just don't care enough either way to really make a fuss about it and I feel comfortable in my body, I just think I'd also be comfortable in a different body (also a lot of it I think was from liking to look attractive and part of me thinking the only way I could do that was by being a girl; once I figured out how to look good as a guy, it basically went away), so I just stick with the default.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 01:06:16 am by Rolepgeek »
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1141 on: December 30, 2016, 01:10:37 am »

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unless they actually feel uncomfortable in their body as-is, and deeply so

Yeah that really was the case.
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1142 on: December 30, 2016, 02:48:59 am »

It is I, Dozebom, back from the undead, now questioning their gender I already did that, now transgender unsure if gender is even a thing denying their own suffering confused.

Err... hmm. With respect to your Pop, it sounds like he is very eager to fill your head with ideas he currently has, and is uninterested in hearing your own thoughts or feelings.


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What does it mean to "identify" as a gender? One's concept of femininity or masculinity are just based on stereotypes, right?

It's lazy of me to just link it, but I dug into the meaning of Gender and Identity Stuff a while back. Gender is arbitrary and made-up, yeah. However, it's also a useful tool; the way you dress or look or behave, the pronoun you use, and whether you are cis or trans or whatever... these can all help potential partners know who you are, and suggest who if anyone you are looking for in a partner. By virtue of being in a society that genders things like clothing and activities and goods, you sorta need to interact with Gender; you can play along, or modify it, or be indifferent or reject it entirely, but it's something that's built into our present culture. It's something we're all forced to acknowledge and work around or within. Also, in the case of gender labels like Woman versus Transwoman, or Gay/Bi versus Straight, or Androphilic versus Gynophilic, that will affect some people's interest in you as a partner. Some people are attracted to certain genders and behaviors, some people are attracted to certain body types or compatible reproductive capability, and some people are attracted to both or neither. All these preferences are valid and okay, too. (I talked about this before too; first post, and another post.)

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Is dysphoria really a medical fabrication?

I'd like to see where your Dad got this factoid. As a transperson who only experiences mild dysphoria, I'm not terribly well-versed. I can say that there are things about my body that don't bug me at all, and other things about my body which I feel tons better about now that they're different. I could draw similarities to feeling dissatisfied with being obese or underweight, or feeling frustrated about your nearsightedness and wanting to get glasses to see better, or wanting to try experimenting with dying or styling your hair differently; it's not perfect, but it's similar for me. Body modification, whether it's aesthetic things, or transhumanist augmentation, or taking control of aspects of our physical sex, it's all not a big deal.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1143 on: December 30, 2016, 03:24:47 am »

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Rolepgeek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1144 on: December 30, 2016, 03:33:02 am »

I will still argue that point, particularly the way you put it, Solifuge. No offense intended. It's arbitrary the same way language is; it could be many things, but these all developed over time as a result of various principles and qualities to do with our biology, environment, and social dynamics in a constructed sense. Please at least don't use the term 'made up whole-cloth'. Arbitrary is a very ambiguous word (annoyingly), but that makes it out to be something very different than it is, as if a bunch of tribesfolk sat down on day and decided 'well, the men shall act in this manner and aspire to be such and such, and the women shall act in that manner and aspire to be so and so.'
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Freud is WATCHING YOU, *eyebrow waggle*
« Reply #1145 on: December 30, 2016, 04:39:54 am »

Arbitrary is a very ambiguous word (annoyingly), but that makes it out to be something very different than it is, as if a bunch of tribesfolk sat down on day and decided 'well, the men shall act in this manner and aspire to be such and such, and the women shall act in that manner and aspire to be so and so.'


P.S. When I say Gender or Gender Roles, I specifically mean the social customs and expectations put on people based on the Sex they are assigned. I don't mean "Gender" as in the gentle way of saying "Biological Sex". Yes there are genetic and hormonally-mediated differences in behavior, but (at least in my experience pre- and post- transition) the ones I've experienced or observed have been pretty dang insignificant compared to the simple fact of our social training and inculcation.

P.P.S. Gender Roles are generally more strict or extreme in cultures emerging in areas of harsh climates, abundant natural hazards, and limited resources. Given the above information, can you guess why? :Y
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 04:52:18 am by Solifuge »
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1146 on: January 19, 2017, 01:29:46 pm »

Quote
Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, because it's OK to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think that being a girl is degrading.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

I have wondered for ages why it was more acceptable for girls to transgress gender norms than for boys to do so. After all, society's got it out for women, right? So why would they be favored in this situation?

But looking at it from the perspective of masculine/feminine behavior (or presentation), it fits together nicely.

Quote from: society
Masculine is good, feminine is bad. Women should act feminine. (This distinguishes them from the default of masculinity, and reinforces their inferiority.)

Quote from: society now
Masculine is good, feminine is bad. Let's free women by letting them act in a good way, a masculine way!

From this perspective, it seems ridiculous that some feminists would be opposed to women acting femininely - reclaiming femininity as not bad is the only non-sexist solution, as far as I can see.

Yes, this is now the feminist thread.
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TempAcc

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1147 on: January 19, 2017, 01:39:21 pm »

This is all nonsense according to hermeticism.

I'm ok with hermeticism.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1148 on: January 19, 2017, 01:46:40 pm »

Quote from: Hermeticism
Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all planes.

Sounds like a bunch of essentialist nonsense.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1149 on: January 19, 2017, 02:41:09 pm »

But the feminine isn't necessarily culturally bad, mind you. It's just a much more exacting set of standards. Meeting the ideal of femininity - beauty, purity, chastity and so forth - is rewarded strongly. Notice, for instance, that transwomen who easily pass are much more kindly looked upon than those who do not - this is because they plausibly meet that feminine ideal and are difficult to distinguish from regular women. The ones that do not are also not beautiful according to the traditional feminine ideal, and their purity and chastity is called into question because they quite literally deviate from sexual norms (and the traditional view is that a crossdresser, for instance, is just a kind of weird sex pervert, which doesn't help matters at all).
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Reelya

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1150 on: January 19, 2017, 02:55:28 pm »

Apparently Milo Yiannopoulos attacked a transwoman on stage at a college and held up a picture of her calling her a sick twisted person basically. And said person was in the audience. Can you imagine how that would feel?

And he's going around publicizing his talks with posters that say "Trannies are Gay" and "Trannies = Mentally Ill". When you combine that with the fact that he's using the pulpit of the stage to do hate speech against individual members of the audience, I can get why people are protesting against his tour, and it's not because "they hate free speech". I mean if a Neo-Nazi is coming to town to give a speech and puts up posters with swastikas on then that say "Gas the Jews" in big letters, and has a habit of turning the audience against specific Jews who turn up to see the speech, I should hope that you get a posse out to beat those guys heads in. There's a limit to acceptable free speech.

EDITED:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/12/milo-yiannopoulos-harasses-transgender-student-stage-milwaukee/
Quote
“‘Man up’ is a big no no for liberals, intent on eliminating masculinity from our culture. Toxic masculinity and rape culture and all the other idiotic things they like to say in their war against men,” Yiannopoulos said. “I’ll tell you one UW Milwaukee student that doesn’t need to man up, Justine Kramer.” He then shared a photo of Adelaide Kramer (Justine is a former name), who was apparently in the audience at the time, on the screen while he proceeded to berate her.
He then made some jokes about the student in question being non-passable, to which the audience all laughed.
Quote
“I’m sitting there and I hear him say ‘Justine Kramer’ and I just froze up. I have never, ever, ever been more terrified in my life of being outed. Ever,” she recalled. “And I am sitting there frozen in total terror that somebody around me would recognize me, point me out, and incite the mob of the room against me. Nobody did point me out, thank god. But do you have ANY idea how much power Milo had and how it feels to pray that your ability to ‘pass’ doesn’t fail you now?”

Which the whole thing is basically disgusting. This reminds me of Dinesh D'Souza, he was the Indian protoge of a right-wing intellectual who hated both Indians and blacks, but he was an Indian conservative who also hated blacks, so he was a useful mouthpiece, and thus carved a unique niche for himself in the right-wing blogosphere. Token non-caucasian racist. Milo Yiannopoulos is carving a similar niche for himself. He's a "mincing" flamboyant gay man who is attacking transgender rights. So in other words he's carving a niche in the conservative field, where they hate gay people in general, by being "their man" who is a gay man who will attack other sexual minorities. Very similar niche to D'Souza.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:07:54 pm by Reelya »
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1151 on: January 19, 2017, 03:01:06 pm »

But the feminine isn't necessarily culturally bad, mind you.
Oh, I know. A few minutes after the initial rush of SEEING THE TRUTH, I can see that this is one piece of the puzzle, not the entire puzzle itself.
Quote
It's just a much more exacting set of standards. Meeting the ideal of femininity - beauty, purity, chastity and so forth - is rewarded strongly.
Ah, but there's a difference between "femininity is bad/good" and "femininity is discouraged/encouraged". Femininity could be encouraged for women, but also considered to be negative.
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Notice, for instance, that transwomen who easily pass are much more kindly looked upon than those who do not - this is because they plausibly meet that feminine ideal and are difficult to distinguish from regular women. The ones that do not are also not beautiful according to the traditional feminine ideal, and their purity and chastity is called into question because they quite literally deviate from sexual norms.
Yes! This is very similar to what I have been thinking about the Standard Trans (Woman) Narrative, which I dislike intensely. It's society's way of enforcing the gender binary even while people cross it - this person really is a woman, and the gender binary still works, see? She fits all the stereotypes! ::)
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([And] the traditional view is that a crossdresser, for instance, is just a kind of weird sex pervert, which doesn't help matters at all).
In TERF terminology, those people are "autogynephilics." I think I preferred "pervert." It's shorter, and doesn't dress up the hatred in medical terms.



Apparently Milo Yiannopoulos attacked a transwoman on stage at a college and held up a picture of her calling her a sick twisted person basically. And said person was in the audience. Can you imagine how that would feel?
This is old news, but yeah. Milo's a piece of shit. And when college students say "get Yiannopoulos out of Minneapolis", the TERFs complain about "muh freeze peaches". We have the right to disallow abusive and hateful speech in our colleges - especially when the speech considered is that of an outsider being invited and given a platform. This isn't some student ranting about the "NIGGERS", this is different. Worse.
Quote
Also, he's advertising his speaking tour with posters that say "Trannies are Gay"
Pffffff-

I literally spit out my trail mix. Milo is gay. What in the four hells? Is he out of his mind?
Quote
and "Trannies = Mentally Ill". When you combine that with the fact that he's using the pulpit of the stage to do hate speech against individual members of the audience, I can get why people are protesting against his tour, and it's not because "they hate free speech". I mean if a Neo-Nazi is coming to town to give a speech and puts up posters with swastikas on then that say "Gas the Jews" in big letters, and has a habit of turning the audience against specific Jews who turn up to see the speech, I should hope that you get a posse out to beat those guys heads in. There's a limit to acceptable free speech.
This isn't even about free speech though. It's about a free platform. Free speech is free speech, an audience or a platform aren't free.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:05:41 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalěs »
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Reelya

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1152 on: January 19, 2017, 03:10:02 pm »

Well the article is 4 weeks old, so I don't think the specific story of him naming a specific transgender person who happened to be in the crowd is "old news", it's certainly not been mentioned here.

It is no news that Milo's a piece of shit, I'll agree with that.

Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1153 on: January 19, 2017, 03:17:35 pm »

Well the article is 4 weeks old, so I don't think the specific story of him naming a specific transgender person who happened to be in the crowd is "old news", it's certainly not been mentioned here.

It is no news that Milo's a piece of shit, I'll agree with that.
In the Interwebs, 4 weeks old is ancient.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1154 on: January 19, 2017, 04:05:46 pm »

This is nuts.
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