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[Rolepgeek]

ONE article doesn't represent the breadth of possible knowledge

It is more that I don't want to step onto hate

The only time I read a anti-trans article I thought had genuinely good information in it... Was more about the success rate of gender realignment, which was stunningly low and suggests a larger problem with either gender dysphoria and/or surgery made to help with it and/or expectations surrounding it.

Which I'd also look up... but I have a feeling looking up "How unrealistic expectations cause post-operation depression in trans people" wouldn't get me search results I'd want.

---

Anyhow I'd also chime in, because I need to be overt, that yes gender dysphoria is a thing. So don't worry about it.

My whole "Hyper femininity" pondering was more of an aside as well as wondering WHY that happens.

Compensation, is my guess. Or celebration. Essentially, now they get to be a woman, and they've been holding that in for a long time, so they're reveling in it. Or they just really like being able to and take greater joy in it than someone for whom it's routine. And, of course, there's some who just are really feminine and it stands out more because it's maybe less expected. A woman being hyper-feminine maybe isn't considered hyper-feminine even if it's the same behaviors, because of the people they're around or because they're used to it and can do it in a way that's not really noticeable.

That's called being genderfluid, and it's not as deeply rooted into the core parts of the brain. It's not dysphoria, though, unless they actually feel uncomfortable in their body as-is, and deeply so, when they feel one gender. If I remember right it's something along the lines of switching circuits? I don't know enough on the subject. I'm somewhat genderfluid I just don't care enough either way to really make a fuss about it and I feel comfortable in my body, I just think I'd also be comfortable in a different body (also a lot of it I think was from liking to look attractive and part of me thinking the only way I could do that was by being a girl; once I figured out how to look good as a guy, it basically went away), so I just stick with the default.

[Neonivek]

unless they actually feel uncomfortable in their body as-is, and deeply so

Yeah that really was the case.

[Solifuge]

It is I, Dozebom, back from the undead, now questioning their gender I already did that, now transgender unsure if gender is even a thing denying their own suffering confused.

Err... hmm. With respect to your Pop, it sounds like he is very eager to fill your head with ideas he currently has, and is uninterested in hearing your own thoughts or feelings.

Spoiler: Here's some thoughts of my own, for general consideration. (click to show/hide)

For all the male-bodied, male-identifying, hypermasculine or butch guys in the world, there are at least as many male-bodied, male-identifying, male-ish neutral-gendered people; most of the time, they still use and identify with Male Pronouns, because they're comfortable with it, or it's how they see their own identity. Sometimes, especially historically, those butch men might give neutral or feminine men shit about not being manly enough, because those Other's expression of Maleness doesn't match their own; maybe those Others aren't muscular enough, or are vegetarians, or don't know how to use power-tools, or don't like getting their hands dirty, or whatever. And on the flip-side, those Gender-Indifferent or Feminine Men might see those Butch Men as overacting idiots, or people who arbitrarily limit themselves and their lives with a dumb and generally toxic social role. In this example, both sides don't agree with one another's expression of Gender... so who's right?

The reality is, gender is a totally arbitrary thing our ancestors and cultures made up whole-cloth. So too, Gender is as real as any other cultural thing, like a Language or a Recipe. Both the Butch Men and the Neutral-ish or Femme Men in that example are right; however someone chooses to express themselves with regard to gender is the correct way to be, and they are free to change that as necessary from day to day. Also, neither are right; they're both forcing their ideas of who someone is supposed to be on others, as though how they themselves are is just the way everyone should be. For a lot of folks, it can be very easy to just default to thinking that their ideas are right, and other people's ideas are wrong. It's an instinct; we have to trust that our own ideas are right in order for us to act on them! In matters like Gender though, when we're literally just talking about our own preferences, interests, values, and codes of conduct... something which we spend our whole lives inventing and changing as we learn and grow... that's not something we can fairly expect other people to just agree and comply with, right?

And yes, that even applies to your Dad's situation; he's wrong for thinking that people who enjoy a given gender role, even a strongly-binary or "archaic" one, are wrong for having that preference. I'm genderqueer as hell, and yet I totally enjoy doing a bunch of Cliche Housewife Shit like cooking, cleaning, and general caretaking of my friends and family; it's one of the ways I show love, and it's part of who I am... and it doesn't have to diminish the other parts of who I am. Unless it does damage to me, my friends, or my environment, it's absolutely not my place to tell other people how to act or express themselves, how to dress, what to be interested in, or otherwise tell them who they "should" be.

What does it mean to "identify" as a gender? One's concept of femininity or masculinity are just based on stereotypes, right?

It's lazy of me to just link it, but I dug into the meaning of Gender and Identity Stuff a while back. Gender is arbitrary and made-up, yeah. However, it's also a useful tool; the way you dress or look or behave, the pronoun you use, and whether you are cis or trans or whatever... these can all help potential partners know who you are, and suggest who if anyone you are looking for in a partner. By virtue of being in a society that genders things like clothing and activities and goods, you sorta need to interact with Gender; you can play along, or modify it, or be indifferent or reject it entirely, but it's something that's built into our present culture. It's something we're all forced to acknowledge and work around or within. Also, in the case of gender labels like Woman versus Transwoman, or Gay/Bi versus Straight, or Androphilic versus Gynophilic, that will affect some people's interest in you as a partner. Some people are attracted to certain genders and behaviors, some people are attracted to certain body types or compatible reproductive capability, and some people are attracted to both or neither. All these preferences are valid and okay, too. (I talked about this before too; first post, and another post.)

Is dysphoria really a medical fabrication?

I'd like to see where your Dad got this factoid. As a transperson who only experiences mild dysphoria, I'm not terribly well-versed. I can say that there are things about my body that don't bug me at all, and other things about my body which I feel tons better about now that they're different. I could draw similarities to feeling dissatisfied with being obese or underweight, or feeling frustrated about your nearsightedness and wanting to get glasses to see better, or wanting to try experimenting with dying or styling your hair differently; it's not perfect, but it's similar for me. Body modification, whether it's aesthetic things, or transhumanist augmentation, or taking control of aspects of our physical sex, it's all not a big deal.

[Shadowlord]

Spoiler: for doze, responses to the stuff you said your dad said (click to show/hide)

Bearing in mind that I'm not a doctor:

Transgender people hate themselves.

That's a misunderstanding. They can be depressed and end up trying to kill themselves, but that's the result of having a severe case of gender dysphoria and trying to live with it instead of getting the appropriate treatment, etc etc.

They should learn to accept their body.

Not usually possible. Gender dysphoria can worsen over time. Not everyone who goes untreated for decades ends up killing themselves, of course, but iirc beginning to transition at the beginning of puberty is ideal. And social transitioning - i.e. pronouns, etc - can be done even earlier.

Dysphoria is solely caused by society and gender roles. It does not exist beyond these roles, and to transition is to accept those roles.

If you are trans, that means that you're supporting the existing societal norms that resulted in your dysphoria.

Science

I'm sure your dad knows plenty of girls who wear jeans and t-shirts, just like men. And women who don't wear makeup. Okay, probably doesn't know many of those.

To trans women, the penis/male body represents toxic masculinity.

I can't tell you what "trans women" in general think about the penis. But... this seems unlikely. According to some study I saw, only a small fraction of them are lesbians, most are straight. It's not about "toxic masculinity," it's about whether your body and brain have a mismatch. And I assume some are good with having a penis, but I don't know. Genital reassignment surgery is very expensive, so there are a lot who haven't had it done who may still feel a need to have it done.

Trans people are obsessed with their appearance.

Considering most transwomen did not learn, as children/teens, how to do makeup and all the other things women have to do to be conventionally attractive and pass as women in our society, and considering that failure to pass can get one beaten or killed, of fucking course they're often going to be obsessed.

Take, for instance, Caitlyn Jenner - she's spent so much money on attaining her concept of the ideal ultrafeminine body.

Caitlyn Jenner is a special snowflake. One, she waited a very long time. Two, because she waited a very long time. Three, because she's really, really rich, and could afford all the surgery she wanted.

Transgender is like transrace.

There is, so far as I'm aware, no biological basis for race. I mean, we categorize people based on their skin color, but that's unscientific. There are people with african or mixed* heritage who are able to pass as white, and in so doing avoid a lot of prejudice and racism. People don't experience racial dysphoria, so far as I'm aware.

* Virtually all african-americans have mixed heritage, presumably due to the literal rape of slaves by their white owners.

Women and men are the same, right?

I don't suppose he's tried to instill this idea in you for your whole life, resulting in your prior confusion in this thread as well? It's a fine hypothesis, except it's counteracted by evidence. Once upon a midnight dreary, babies whose circumcisions were botched were transitioned to and raised as female, which turned out, when they got older, to cause... surprise! gender dysphoria!

Trump can't see that. He thinks that there's a crucial difference between women and men. You don't want to be like that.

I CAN SEE DEAD FALLACIES
"You know who else liked puppies? Hitler. Hitler liked puppies. You don't want to be like Hitler, do you?"

Since gender is socially constructed

[/quote]
INCORRECT

, and you shouldn't consider it to be too important, why do you think you're trans? Doesn't "transgender" imply that there is something more, something real, to gender?

And therefore this is irrelevant.

You know your cousin? They're genderfluid. That's better, because it defies gender roles.

It's better if you're genderfluid, sure. It's not something you can choose to be, though, afaik.

Just be you. You don't need to change yourself to be somebody else.

Is he afraid that you'll cease to exist and be replaced by someone else if you transition?

Remember your other cousin, the trans one? She's conforming to gender roles too much. Why would you constrain yourself like that?

I am disturbed by people, cis or trans, conforming to gender roles. But to be trans implies that you are conforming to gender roles.

Says the same guy who also said "just be you" ? O_o

Gender is ephemeral. Why would you do something permanent to your body when your gender might change later?

Guess what else does something permanent to your body? Puberty. Time is a thing which flies and stuff.

If you don't know what it means to be a "boy" or a "girl", how do you know which one you are?

Euuuurgh.

Don't let yourself get caught by the medical discourse.

Euuuurgh.

Dysphoria is not real. It is the pathologization of difference, just like how homosexuality was pathologized.

Thinking that your body is wrong = pathologization.

Forcing a trans person to keep their natal (birth) gender is like forcing homosexuals to "just be straight."

[Rolepgeek]

I will still argue that point, particularly the way you put it, Solifuge. No offense intended. It's arbitrary the same way language is; it could be many things, but these all developed over time as a result of various principles and qualities to do with our biology, environment, and social dynamics in a constructed sense. Please at least don't use the term 'made up whole-cloth'. Arbitrary is a very ambiguous word (annoyingly), but that makes it out to be something very different than it is, as if a bunch of tribesfolk sat down on day and decided 'well, the men shall act in this manner and aspire to be such and such, and the women shall act in that manner and aspire to be so and so.'

[Solifuge]

Arbitrary is a very ambiguous word (annoyingly), but that makes it out to be something very different than it is, as if a bunch of tribesfolk sat down on day and decided 'well, the men shall act in this manner and aspire to be such and such, and the women shall act in that manner and aspire to be so and so.'

Spoiler: Derail, but that's actually pretty much exactly what happened! (click to show/hide)

Gender was an ancient technology, the development of which was promoted by a Convergent-Evolution-like process; it happened independently in many different Human Cultures, and also spread from culture to culture due to the advantages it brought.

In a nutshell: The number of living adult Females in a band or tribe determines the maximum number of babies that can be born to it that year. Cultures without Gender Roles restricting Females from dangerous work lost more Females to illness and injury, and thus reduced their group's Reproductive Capacity. This, in turn, reduces the group's ability to recover from disaster, injury, illness, and other loss of life. Slower population growth meant those bands and tribes were generally out-competed by groups with more members. So too, culture is a tool unlike evolution, and effective tools tend to inspire the creation or spread of similar tools in neighboring cultures. These are some of the reasons Gender Roles are so ubiquitous.

The end product is that, deep within ancient laws, social contracts, and what's accepted as normal for most cultures in the world, we find these Gender Roles buried. They're so ancient, and so deeply-tied to the rituals and jobs and ceremonies and other fundamental parts of a culture that they seem Biological or Fundamental. This, despite said Gender Roles varying widely from culture to culture. And also despite being rendered completely irrelevant in an era when mortality and maximizing reproductive capacity isn't a concern (and is even arguably harmful, given the survival risks posed by exponential Human overpopulation).

Side note: The invention of Gender Roles was likely an influence on our biological evolution as well; mild Sexual Dymorphism tends to emerge among species like Humans, which have been social for a long time. The non-child-bearers are specialized for certain tasks, or in ways that make their activities less risky. These traits or capabilities are generally not be as pronounced in caretakers / child-bearers not involved in these activities, to conserve bodily resources and energy that would be spent developing and maintaining those capabilities. A good example is the way elevated Testosterone Levels in Men and Women encourage higher baseline Muscle Mass, but require more calories to maintain ("Sex Hormones" do not have this effect in all species; solitary hunters and non-social animals tend to create Males and Females whose capabilities are a lot more similar). Eusocial animals like Mole Rats or many species of hive-dwelling insects with single Breeders in their communities get even more extreme versions of this; most have at least 3 genetic or "sex-like" morphs that create specific genders/"social castes", and some have twice that or more. But we're getting off on a huge tangent at this point.

P.S. When I say Gender or Gender Roles, I specifically mean the social customs and expectations put on people based on the Sex they are assigned. I don't mean "Gender" as in the gentle way of saying "Biological Sex". Yes there are genetic and hormonally-mediated differences in behavior, but (at least in my experience pre- and post- transition) the ones I've experienced or observed have been pretty dang insignificant compared to the simple fact of our social training and inculcation.

P.P.S. Gender Roles are generally more strict or extreme in cultures emerging in areas of harsh climates, abundant natural hazards, and limited resources. Given the above information, can you guess why? :Y

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, because it's OK to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think that being a girl is degrading.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

I have wondered for ages why it was more acceptable for girls to transgress gender norms than for boys to do so. After all, society's got it out for women, right? So why would they be favored in this situation?

But looking at it from the perspective of masculine/feminine behavior (or presentation), it fits together nicely.

Masculine is good, feminine is bad. Women should act feminine. (This distinguishes them from the default of masculinity, and reinforces their inferiority.)

Masculine is good, feminine is bad. Let's free women by letting them act in a good way, a masculine way!

From this perspective, it seems ridiculous that some feminists would be opposed to women acting femininely - reclaiming femininity as not bad is the only non-sexist solution, as far as I can see.

Yes, this is now the feminist thread.

[TempAcc]

This is all nonsense according to hermeticism.

I'm ok with hermeticism.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all planes.

Sounds like a bunch of essentialist nonsense.

[Harry Baldman]

But the feminine isn't necessarily culturally bad, mind you. It's just a much more exacting set of standards. Meeting the ideal of femininity - beauty, purity, chastity and so forth - is rewarded strongly. Notice, for instance, that transwomen who easily pass are much more kindly looked upon than those who do not - this is because they plausibly meet that feminine ideal and are difficult to distinguish from regular women. The ones that do not are also not beautiful according to the traditional feminine ideal, and their purity and chastity is called into question because they quite literally deviate from sexual norms (and the traditional view is that a crossdresser, for instance, is just a kind of weird sex pervert, which doesn't help matters at all).

[Reelya]

Apparently Milo Yiannopoulos attacked a transwoman on stage at a college and held up a picture of her calling her a sick twisted person basically. And said person was in the audience. Can you imagine how that would feel?

And he's going around publicizing his talks with posters that say "Trannies are Gay" and "Trannies = Mentally Ill". When you combine that with the fact that he's using the pulpit of the stage to do hate speech against individual members of the audience, I can get why people are protesting against his tour, and it's not because "they hate free speech". I mean if a Neo-Nazi is coming to town to give a speech and puts up posters with swastikas on then that say "Gas the Jews" in big letters, and has a habit of turning the audience against specific Jews who turn up to see the speech, I should hope that you get a posse out to beat those guys heads in. There's a limit to acceptable free speech.

EDITED:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/12/milo-yiannopoulos-harasses-transgender-student-stage-milwaukee/

“‘Man up’ is a big no no for liberals, intent on eliminating masculinity from our culture. Toxic masculinity and rape culture and all the other idiotic things they like to say in their war against men,” Yiannopoulos said. “I’ll tell you one UW Milwaukee student that doesn’t need to man up, Justine Kramer.” He then shared a photo of Adelaide Kramer (Justine is a former name), who was apparently in the audience at the time, on the screen while he proceeded to berate her.

He then made some jokes about the student in question being non-passable, to which the audience all laughed.

“I’m sitting there and I hear him say ‘Justine Kramer’ and I just froze up. I have never, ever, ever been more terrified in my life of being outed. Ever,” she recalled. “And I am sitting there frozen in total terror that somebody around me would recognize me, point me out, and incite the mob of the room against me. Nobody did point me out, thank god. But do you have ANY idea how much power Milo had and how it feels to pray that your ability to ‘pass’ doesn’t fail you now?”

Which the whole thing is basically disgusting. This reminds me of Dinesh D'Souza, he was the Indian protoge of a right-wing intellectual who hated both Indians and blacks, but he was an Indian conservative who also hated blacks, so he was a useful mouthpiece, and thus carved a unique niche for himself in the right-wing blogosphere. Token non-caucasian racist. Milo Yiannopoulos is carving a similar niche for himself. He's a "mincing" flamboyant gay man who is attacking transgender rights. So in other words he's carving a niche in the conservative field, where they hate gay people in general, by being "their man" who is a gay man who will attack other sexual minorities. Very similar niche to D'Souza.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

But the feminine isn't necessarily culturally bad, mind you.

Oh, I know. A few minutes after the initial rush of SEEING THE TRUTH, I can see that this is one piece of the puzzle, not the entire puzzle itself.

It's just a much more exacting set of standards. Meeting the ideal of femininity - beauty, purity, chastity and so forth - is rewarded strongly.

Ah, but there's a difference between "femininity is bad/good" and "femininity is discouraged/encouraged". Femininity could be encouraged for women, but also considered to be negative.

Notice, for instance, that transwomen who easily pass are much more kindly looked upon than those who do not - this is because they plausibly meet that feminine ideal and are difficult to distinguish from regular women. The ones that do not are also not beautiful according to the traditional feminine ideal, and their purity and chastity is called into question because they quite literally deviate from sexual norms.

Yes! This is very similar to what I have been thinking about the Standard Trans (Woman) Narrative, which I dislike intensely. It's society's way of enforcing the gender binary even while people cross it - this person really is a woman, and the gender binary still works, see? She fits all the stereotypes!

([And] the traditional view is that a crossdresser, for instance, is just a kind of weird sex pervert, which doesn't help matters at all).

In TERF terminology, those people are "autogynephilics." I think I preferred "pervert." It's shorter, and doesn't dress up the hatred in medical terms.

Apparently Milo Yiannopoulos attacked a transwoman on stage at a college and held up a picture of her calling her a sick twisted person basically. And said person was in the audience. Can you imagine how that would feel?

This is old news, but yeah. Milo's a piece of shit. And when college students say "get Yiannopoulos out of Minneapolis", the TERFs complain about "muh freeze peaches". We have the right to disallow abusive and hateful speech in our colleges - especially when the speech considered is that of an outsider being invited and given a platform. This isn't some student ranting about the "NIGGERS", this is different. Worse.

Also, he's advertising his speaking tour with posters that say "Trannies are Gay"

Pffffff-

I literally spit out my trail mix. Milo is gay. What in the four hells? Is he out of his mind?

and "Trannies = Mentally Ill". When you combine that with the fact that he's using the pulpit of the stage to do hate speech against individual members of the audience, I can get why people are protesting against his tour, and it's not because "they hate free speech". I mean if a Neo-Nazi is coming to town to give a speech and puts up posters with swastikas on then that say "Gas the Jews" in big letters, and has a habit of turning the audience against specific Jews who turn up to see the speech, I should hope that you get a posse out to beat those guys heads in. There's a limit to acceptable free speech.

This isn't even about free speech though. It's about a free platform. Free speech is free speech, an audience or a platform aren't free.

[Reelya]

Well the article is 4 weeks old, so I don't think the specific story of him naming a specific transgender person who happened to be in the crowd is "old news", it's certainly not been mentioned here.

It is no news that Milo's a piece of shit, I'll agree with that.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Well the article is 4 weeks old, so I don't think the specific story of him naming a specific transgender person who happened to be in the crowd is "old news", it's certainly not been mentioned here.

It is no news that Milo's a piece of shit, I'll agree with that.

In the Interwebs, 4 weeks old is ancient.

[TheBiggerFish]

This is nuts.