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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412393 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9270 on: November 01, 2016, 09:08:24 pm »

Frankly I don't even think this could have Impeached Hillary Clinton even if she was in office.

Heck if she WAS in office he wouldn't even be saying that. It is just another transparent attempt to influence the election.

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to take a stab at an attempt.

Quote
Meanwhile, I look to the right and see "Trump's gonna save the country" and "Clinton's awful." I look to the left and see "Trump's awful." and "Clinton's awful." Makes it pretty clear to me who I should vote for, if I'm on the fence over who to vote for

Maybe you should like... actually look up their platforms.

Something that very few Right Wingers actually do it seems O_o... Either that or they think he won't go through with SOME of his proposals.

Or they just think Hillary is worse no matter what just because she is a Democrat.
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alway

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9271 on: November 01, 2016, 09:14:45 pm »

Quote
Meanwhile, I look to the right and see "Trump's gonna save the country" and "Clinton's awful." I look to the left and see "Trump's awful." and "Clinton's awful." Makes it pretty clear to me who I should vote for, if I'm on the fence over who to vote for

Maybe you should like... actually look up their platforms.

Something that very few Right Wingers actually do it seems O_o... Either that or they think he won't go through with SOME of his proposals.
Something that very few of anybody does, actually. How many here have looked up a full list of Trump's platform, if such a thing exists? I haven't. And I know many here didn't look up Clinton's platform either. I sure haven't read all of it, but I have seen pages of discussion here from time to time about Clinton's platform that clearly indicate most or all others in this thread haven't done so either, even when self-selected for those who care about it.

People don't vote for platforms, they vote for the impression they got about the platforms from interactions with those advocating for or against them, mixed in with what they heard the candidates say on the news.
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sluissa

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9272 on: November 01, 2016, 09:23:38 pm »

Frankly I don't even think this could have Impeached Hillary Clinton even if she was in office.

Heck if she WAS in office he wouldn't even be saying that. It is just another transparent attempt to influence the election.

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to take a stab at an attempt.

Quote
Meanwhile, I look to the right and see "Trump's gonna save the country" and "Clinton's awful." I look to the left and see "Trump's awful." and "Clinton's awful." Makes it pretty clear to me who I should vote for, if I'm on the fence over who to vote for

Maybe you should like... actually look up their platforms.

Something that very few Right Wingers actually do it seems O_o... Either that or they think he won't go through with SOME of his proposals.

Or they just think Hillary is worse no matter what just because she is a Democrat.

I hate Hillary, I don't think she's fit for presidential office nor do I think she's fit to work in a filing office.

But even I'll admit that most of the stuff that the right comes up to blame her for is a bit crazy. And they say it as if it's the obvious truth. It's an extension of the Obama hate where it didn't matter whether it was true, if someone said it and it was negative about Obama, it might as well be true because it's going to get repeated in millions of chain letters, and spouted over twice as many beers and meals.

It always frustrated me when I hated a lot of what Obama was doing but the people willing to hear me out without shunning me were more worried about him being a secret muslim anti-christ than his stance on trade agreements and whistleblower protection.

Now it's people worried about Hillary letting in 650 million illegal immigrants.

The hyperbole spread is ridiculous.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9273 on: November 01, 2016, 09:44:22 pm »

Yea, the 650mil is so ridiculous, especially when you realize how many countries that would involve. For example, it'd be more than the ENTIRE population of South and Central America, with Mexico included, which comes out to about 588 million. I used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population and I may have missed one country (not sure if I missed Argentina), but even then, it'd still be less than 650 million.

I used South and Central America because another source had used Canada and all of Europe and/or the EU as an example, so, I decided to use a different continent.

It's also possible that he might have been referring to the number of international people that pass through international airports in a year, but I'm not sure that number would even be THAT high.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:46:13 pm by smjjames »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9274 on: November 01, 2016, 09:46:18 pm »

Gallup once did a global study and found that there are about 150 million people worldwide who'd like to move to America if given a free opportunity to do so, so yeah, ever so slightly overblown.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9275 on: November 01, 2016, 09:48:27 pm »

snip
For what it's worth, I've been over both at least once or twice since the primaries started.

I've also been having slowly escalating memory problems over roughly the same period and don't remember most of them, most of the time :-\
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9276 on: November 01, 2016, 09:53:27 pm »

Quote
Meanwhile, I look to the right and see "Trump's gonna save the country" and "Clinton's awful." I look to the left and see "Trump's awful." and "Clinton's awful." Makes it pretty clear to me who I should vote for, if I'm on the fence over who to vote for

Maybe you should like... actually look up their platforms.

Something that very few Right Wingers actually do it seems O_o... Either that or they think he won't go through with SOME of his proposals.
Something that very few of anybody does, actually. How many here have looked up a full list of Trump's platform, if such a thing exists? I haven't. And I know many here didn't look up Clinton's platform either. I sure haven't read all of it, but I have seen pages of discussion here from time to time about Clinton's platform that clearly indicate most or all others in this thread haven't done so either, even when self-selected for those who care about it.

People don't vote for platforms, they vote for the impression they got about the platforms from interactions with those advocating for or against them, mixed in with what they heard the candidates say on the news.

Ok that is DEPRESSING!

I mean I don't like the Conservative party of Canada... but their platform is actually pretty reasonable and includes things that even "I" think should be implemented (for example that phone companies can't charge you for spam messages) or are things I disagree with but aren't unreasonable or unarguable. Their platforms are usually good enough that a Conservative majority doesn't mean horrible things for All of Canada. HECK people considered a minority government worse then any party winning (Because minority governments tend to not get stuff done due to partisan politics)

Yet seriously the one thing about Trump vs. Clinton that could cut through all the diatribe and almost no one in the USA actually reads the dang thing?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:55:58 pm by Neonivek »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9277 on: November 01, 2016, 09:56:14 pm »

Great swaths of both sides believe most or all of the platforms are lies. Not much point in reading them if you don't think they represent anything of note.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9278 on: November 01, 2016, 10:20:20 pm »

Great swaths of both sides believe most or all of the platforms are lies. Not much point in reading them if you don't think they represent anything of note.

Can you blame them?... I mean, transparency was a central promise of Obama's campaign.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9279 on: November 01, 2016, 10:24:25 pm »

It's because both platforms inevitably drift together towards the middle

Median voter theory and all that
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9280 on: November 01, 2016, 10:36:34 pm »

Great swaths of both sides believe most or all of the platforms are lies. Not much point in reading them if you don't think they represent anything of note.

Can you blame them?... I mean, transparency was a central promise of Obama's campaign.
Yeah, I can. Promise not 100% met is not a lie. Failure on one front is not failure on all. Cynicism is not an excuse for ignorance. Assuming everything is deception does little except making you more susceptible to it. Case in point, this goddamn election and what's been happening to conservative media in particular. When everything is a lie to someone they start buying lies as truth, because they've rejected the metric of goddamn reality as a heuristic for the evaluation of claims.

And no, the platforms really aren't particularly similar. They've been diverging on more points than they've been converging on for a while now. Lot of that has been the alt-right and co. hijacking conservatism, but it's been happening anyway.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9281 on: November 01, 2016, 10:38:25 pm »

It's because both platforms inevitably drift together towards the middle

Median voter theory and all that

Pfft, moderate or center-right Republicans are an endangered species. Besides, Trumps platform is vague and scarce of detail as all heck.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:40:07 pm by smjjames »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9282 on: November 01, 2016, 10:42:55 pm »

Yeah, I can. Promise not 100% met is not a lie. Failure on one front is not failure on all.

True.  But reversal is something worse than failure.  And I think it should be understandable that someone would be especially soured, if that reversal is on an issue that's especially important to them.
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9283 on: November 01, 2016, 11:09:35 pm »

Great swaths of both sides believe most or all of the platforms are lies. Not much point in reading them if you don't think they represent anything of note.

Can you blame them?... I mean, transparency was a central promise of Obama's campaign.
Yeah, I can. Promise not 100% met is not a lie. Failure on one front is not failure on all. Cynicism is not an excuse for ignorance. Assuming everything is deception does little except making you more susceptible to it. Case in point, this goddamn election and what's been happening to conservative media in particular. When everything is a lie to someone they start buying lies as truth, because they've rejected the metric of goddamn reality as a heuristic for the evaluation of claims.

And no, the platforms really aren't particularly similar. They've been diverging on more points than they've been converging on for a while now. Lot of that has been the alt-right and co. hijacking conservatism, but it's been happening anyway.
You misspoke. You meant "treating everything your opponent says as a lie". If someone treated everything as a lie, they wouldn't accept any claim.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:11:51 pm by BorkBorkGoesTheCode »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9284 on: November 01, 2016, 11:58:07 pm »

Won't lie, isp, now you've got me curious as to the last POTUS candidate that did have anything approaching a position on legal immigrants. Clinton at least mentions them, but the closest I've noticed to actual policy that would maybe directly effect them would be the promise to deal with the family visa backlog. Poking around also seems to suggest at least some of the waivers are intended to legal immigrants; there's mention of the using them to knock down fees potentially roadblocking folks taking the last steps, ferex. There's been some statements with maybe a bit more kick than what you've noticed made specifically when stumping for immigrant heavy/minority areas/groups, apparently.

You misspoke. You meant "treating everything your opponent says as a lie". If someone treated everything as a lie, they wouldn't accept any claim.
Bork, you may not have paid much attention to this election. I didn't misspeak. Claims get accepted by the folks being spoken of, but by and large not on basis of whether it's a lie or not. That said, probably could have spoken better, yeah. Currently too much of a headache to manage much, and I'll probably not really remember the issue come tomorrow.

Not sure what the strikethrough was for, though. Attempt at sarcasm formatting?

Yeah, I can. Promise not 100% met is not a lie. Failure on one front is not failure on all.

True.  But reversal is something worse than failure.  And I think it should be understandable that someone would be especially soured, if that reversal is on an issue that's especially important to them.
Sure. But what we were just talking about was not "souring", it was taking one aspect and throwing every bloody thing else out with it. The transparency you just mentioned is actually an example of it. Obama definitely screwed the pooch on transparency in a lot of areas. There's also a number of areas where there were damn substantial gains. A straight up reversal it wasn't. What's not understandable is treating it as such. A failure on the net, maybe. Less than promised, definitely. But a reversal? A straight up full 180 let's make everything more opaque, or even something approaching it? No. Goddamnit all, it's not what has fucking happened, for all the gigantic bullshit that has.

... and I've gotten too out of it to remember where I was going with that, so bleh. But, like. You, SG? You seem to walk the line fairly well, from what I've seen you say. Lotta' shit happens, there's a lot of reasons to withhold a degree of credulity, but you mostly seem to be able to keep yourself from tossing it all out without incredibly goddamn solid reason, and seem to have the sense to keep that sort of thing fairly narrowly focused when you do. Can you say with a straight face very many others do? That the sort of distrust we're talking about doesn't very, very easily translate into guzzling down whatever bullshit is plated in the right colors and patterns? Because if there's bloody anything this election has shown us it's that there's a hell of a lot of people that do exactly that.
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