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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1411826 times)

Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6465 on: October 10, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »

Y'know, what I've been saying. I've been in garages and on building yards before -- not often for the latter, but I've family that's been in construction at various points -- as well as offices. Buncha' other places besides, even. I have very, very rarely heard worse than someone saying they abused their power and/or authority to take sexual advantage of other people. If you're running in circles where that kind of abuse is a common subject there is something seriously wrong with the circles you're running in.

Vulgarity and lewdness and all that sort of stuff is common, sure. What's not is the format trump expressed it in. It'd be really nice if we didn't try to normalize this shit when it's really not bloody normal.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6466 on: October 10, 2016, 01:00:34 pm »

If I ever overheard my son say something like that, I'd smack his ass into last Tuesday. And this is as someone who does not take raising a hand against a child lightly.
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turn into guys who think it's okay to beat children
Err...
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6467 on: October 10, 2016, 01:08:56 pm »

Even in congress we do expect them to adapt to new stuff not wait two years for the voters to tell them what to do.

So seeing all this dismissiveness does a fair bit to sadden and disappoint me, as well as infuriate me. When people decide that they can stop listening or taking people with seriousness because oh, their side has the moral superiority, oh, the other side's a bunch of racists, it shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion and turns into simply feeing smugly superior.

Whereas you decide that the other side is being closeminded and so you stop listening to them.  Which shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion and turns it into a chance for you to feel smugly superior.
I don't know about you, but I made my post with the intention of starting discussion, not to end it. I'm here to listen and to respond.

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Actual sexism exists, along with actual racism, actual privledge, etc.  But whenever it is pointed out the discussion is shut down with bitching about how people are so quick to fly off the handle.
You know what? Sure, at times, and I'm not just saying this to defuse things. Sometimes people are actually racist. But there is a hell of a lot of pointing the finger at things that aren't real racism or sexism or stuff, and that's the vast majority of what I see on these forums. When people start spewing actual bigotry, they tend to get banned in fairly short order. The sort of thing I see inthread tends to consist more of fingerpointing for disagreeing on any sort of issue hat involves race at all, Brexit being a brilliantly shining example.

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So when this wall of condescension rolls in with "yeah poor white straight man riiiight" sort of stuff or the endless shutting down of conversation

Yeah, people are assholes to you.  That's humanity.  The shit goes in all directions.
I'm not even totally talking about myself here, since I myself don't usually get called racist or anything like that. But while it is humanity, you yourself have pointed out on more than one occasion that just because people are assholes and say asshole things doesn't mean those asshole things have to be put up with. It cuts both ways.
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But what about the nice stuff?  What about the liberals picking a champion who is trying to help with the opioid epidemic in poor rural areas?  What about the liberals chosing that they are going to die on the hill of providing health insurance to poor people?  Or how the liberals are sticking by their guns to make sure this insurance reaches poor, rural conservative voters who aint exactly liberal after a conservative congress and conservative state governments teamed up to keep poor people from getting insurance in their states?  What about the liberals shoving a ton of money into making sure the poor rural people have access to high speed internet?  Or making sure that funding keeps flowing to the national parks and infrastructure spending that is a huge boon to the economies of rural areas?
I don't fault any of this, nor have I ever. I wish we talked more about this stuff, it's the stuff I would love to have a discussion about because I can solidly respect some things and respectfully disagree with others, rather than this sort of discussion which is usually inherently hostile.

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You tell me I need to treat someone nice and I'll tell you to fuck off and shove that high horse you rode in on up your ass.  But I think it's fair to say that all liberals want the government to respect the needs and even the wishes of all people including the ones I dont like.
And you'll be telling me to fuck off of my high horse at eye level. Because you've taken the exact opposite view of this when conservatives are involved before, talking about how people don't need to accept or put up with the shit they say. You can't just expect it to cut only one way, to want conservatives to be nicer or more civil, and then turn around and throw the same vitriol at them. Or, rather you can, but don't expect it to always be accepted just like that.

And, no, I don't think you can make such a sweeping positive generalization about liberals. There are plenty out there who blindly hate the rich or the "rednecks", much as there are conservatives who hate the everloving hell out of blacks or urban liberals. People put it out on the internet, and I see it.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6468 on: October 10, 2016, 01:12:33 pm »

I liked it when people weren't trying to downplay claiming to have committed sexual assault, myself. The things this election has done to people :-\
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6469 on: October 10, 2016, 01:15:15 pm »

"And you'll be telling me to fuck off on my high horse at eye-level" is now my favourite retort from the ameripol thread
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6470 on: October 10, 2016, 01:15:45 pm »

Be thy pray turn away to the hearts of men, but yet find yourself twisting, turning and once again, folded eyes to face 2016.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6471 on: October 10, 2016, 01:15:51 pm »

I'll say that it's my view that what Trump said is genuinely terrible. Of course, "tempted to go fuk u up" sort of stuff is just going to reinforce the view that the other side is just being brutish, violent, and unreasonable which leads to the same sort of "discussion" I keep bitching about.
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Folly

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6472 on: October 10, 2016, 01:17:07 pm »

To step back from the sexism/rape-apology/whatever, can I ask, Folly, what your general political affilation is? Who, before MELTDOWN 2016 ELECTION SEASON, is the party you would have predicted you'd vote for?

Also what's your opinion on the last two presidents we had?

(Just curious)

*shrug* I tend to lean towards liberalism...but honestly, as long as the politicians keep the lights on, the borders safe, and the taxes low, then I'm disinclined to take issue with their affairs.

I was still in school for most of Bush's terms, and didn't have time or incentive to pay attention to what he was doing at the time. In retrospect I'm not enthusiastic about some of his decisions, but we got through it without any lasting harm so might as well leave the past in the past.

I'm fairly unhappy with Obamacare...but otherwise have seen no reason to complain about Obama.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6473 on: October 10, 2016, 01:19:37 pm »

... we're still dealing with harm from bush's era, fol. Arguably either of them, but very definitely the second. I'd call it pretty lasting.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6474 on: October 10, 2016, 01:22:46 pm »

Healthcare inflation is actually lower since Obamacare came in. e.g. the lowest right now of any time since 1961. That's why those "prices have gone up" people are full of shit. Prices always go up. But they're actually going up slower now than before. Sure, you can counter-point that with the fact that healthcare price inflation was trending downwards already before Obamacare, and that trend merely continued, but that doesn't change the fact that prices are rising slower now than before. Record low rates in fact (the dip in 1961 was an anomaly due to government intervention). This is a historic period of low, and consistently low, healthcare price inflation.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 01:24:54 pm by Reelya »
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RedKing

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6475 on: October 10, 2016, 01:23:32 pm »

If I ever overheard my son say something like that, I'd smack his ass into last Tuesday. And this is as someone who does not take raising a hand against a child lightly.
Quote
turn into guys who think it's okay to beat children
Err...
What part of "Does not take raising a hand against a child lightly" was unclear? When I say beat, I'm not talking abut spanking, I'm talking about the kind of shit that was done to me. Broken arms, scars, stab wounds, burn marks, etc.

Hell, I feel lower than pond scum on the few occasions where I have spanked my kids. But this is an example of something that I think would warrant it.

@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6476 on: October 10, 2016, 01:27:20 pm »

To step back from the sexism/rape-apology/whatever, can I ask, Folly, what your general political affilation is? Who, before MELTDOWN 2016 ELECTION SEASON, is the party you would have predicted you'd vote for?

Also what's your opinion on the last two presidents we had?

(Just curious)

*shrug* I tend to lean towards liberalism...but honestly, as long as the politicians keep the lights on, the borders safe, and the taxes low, then I'm disinclined to take issue with their affairs.

I was still in school for most of Bush's terms, and didn't have time or incentive to pay attention to what he was doing at the time. In retrospect I'm not enthusiastic about some of his decisions, but we got through it without any lasting harm so might as well leave the past in the past.

I'm fairly unhappy with Obamacare...but otherwise have seen no reason to complain about Obama.

Hey, it's not like Bush started any wars on completely fabricated pretenses and set up the next two decades of terrorist-spawning power vacuum, nor did he leave the regulatory agencies to hang for eight years and set up any kind of housing crisis. Nothing like that happened. I'd remember something like that.

I just wish we called ACA Romneycare after the guy who proposed it in the first place.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6477 on: October 10, 2016, 01:29:59 pm »

In other news, if anyone wanted a nice breakdown of trump's lies in the second debate, here's one of the more straightforward I've seen. Hadn't actually checked to see what the first one was like on that front, but apparently the margins between the two were about the same.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6478 on: October 10, 2016, 01:30:05 pm »

I'm gonna be dead honest, I've expressed opposition to the aca before, but whatever I actually knew about the actual workings of the bill I've since forgotten. Can someone help me out and explain what it actually consists of to me, so I'm not full of shit?
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alway

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #6479 on: October 10, 2016, 01:31:27 pm »

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-groper-in-chief.html
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“I was admiring the decoration, and next thing I know he’s pushing me against a wall and has his hands all over me,” Harth told me. “He was trying to kiss me. I was freaking out.”

Some of the calendar girls stayed, and the sexual harassment lawsuit says Trump showed up uninvited in the predawn hours in the bedroom of one of the young women; she kicked him out but was shaken.

That year, Harth continued to meet Trump for business — and, she says, he continued to try to jump her. “He’d say, ‘Let’s go in my room, I want to lie down,’ and he’d pull me along. I’d say, ‘I don’t want to lie down,’ and it would turn into a wrestling match. … I remember yelling, ‘I didn’t come here for this.’ He’d say, ‘Just calm down.’”

But she says that he was never violent and genuinely seemed to assume sexual interest on her part; often he was playful as she was frightened: “His mind was in a totally different place than mine,” Harth recalls. “He thinks he’s God’s gift to women.”

In the end, Houraney and Harth used a Trump casino to hold an event that Trump praised in a letter to them. But in 1994, Trump walked away from the relationship and refused to pay what he owed, they say.
Houraney, who owned the events planning company, sued Trump for breach of contract, and the two sides eventually reached a confidential settlement. Harth says Trump paid somewhat more than $100,000. Harth separately had filed her sexual harassment suit, which also alleged attempted rape; she withdrew her suit as a condition for settling the contract dispute, she says.


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