Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MetalSlimeHunt]

If we could reduce our Internet Tough Guy Index back to zero, that would be great.

[mainiac]

You redirect as artfully as a Trump supporter.

Redirect is where you try to shut down a line of conversation by changing the topic.  The word you are looking for is contextualize.  And that's the thing, the more context you see about the Clinton emails, the less bad they look.  The more you hear from people who deal with the classified state department stuff, the more at ease you are about what was communicated and the judgement of the people communicating.  The more you hear from actual investigators, the more confident you are that nothing malicious was done or any cover up was attempted.

And the less bad things look the more obvious it becomes that a bunch of shameless assholes created this whole thing for selfish political reasons.  The more you know, the more you can tell that they are lying to your face.  And you should say "I wont be fooled again".

Some empty words about questionable sexual practices

But the words were a statement that he has committed sexual assault.  You say you aren't in favor of sexual assault but you are saying people shouldn't object to sexual assault.  And when you stop people from raising objections to crimes, you are siding with the criminals.  This is the reason why womens rights groups are constantly talking about breaking silence, about getting women talking, about getting men saying that men do not condone these things.

[Dorsidwarf]

To step back from the sexism/rape-apology/whatever, can I ask, Folly, what your general political affilation is? Who, before MELTDOWN 2016 ELECTION SEASON, is the party you would have predicted you'd vote for?

Also what's your opinion on the last two presidents we had?

(Just curious)

[Frumple]

I'm in favor of keeping things in context. Some empty words about questionable sexual practices have relatively little bearing on Trump's capacity to serve as president when weighed against the many other things he has said and done.

... yeah, they're not empty. We've got it right out of the guy's own damn mouth he does stuff like he said -- see his commentary on beauty pageants and "inspections", ferex, and then try to tell me sexual assault isn't right up his alley. Never mind all the people that's come out over the years, as well as recently, saying stuff that makes it abundantly clear he wasn't talking about something out of character for him. Or all the time he's spent over the last months showing just how little respect he has for the people he was talking about assaulting.

You're not keeping things in context, fol. You're trying to isolate a specific statement and call it the totality of context. It's not. And for all much of the other shit he's said and done is indeed worse, this is not a subject of little bearing to his capacity to serve as president.

[Frumple]

... I haven't heard anyone worth a damn have that sort of conversation, no. Or many people at all, really, even spending far more time than I'd like among some pretty misogynistic bastards. Especially with the addendum of being rich means you get away with it.

It's also worth noting that this was not something said during sodding high school.

And if you're looking for evidence, you might actually try looking. Trump's got at least as much dirt on him on that subject as bill does.

[Powder Miner]

>>>>>>pro-brexit MUST be racist
It's amazing how complex issues like this can be boiled down into one simple little label. Racist! Obviously if you support Brexit, it's purely because you hate immigrants and are a racist, if you oppose the democrats you're a racist, or certain people getting harassed because they're white and this means they're the oppressors, the bully, and it's okay, and if you think it's not then poor straight white man boohoohoo.

Sometimes, I have a tendency to give ground to avoid annoying people by disagreeing too thoroughly but I want to stick to my guns this time. I hate this. I believe that the best way to learn and for politics to progress is to actually listen to people, legitimately weigh their thoughts, and discuss -- I've learned lots of things in conversation with my fellow students, some of whom were very liberal, and whose thoughts and beliefs helped expose me to something outside of my circle and greatly helped me progress with my political thought. I look back on these conversations very, very fondly, the highlight of my week sometimes.

So seeing all this dismissiveness does a fair bit to sadden and disappoint me, as well as infuriate me. When people decide that they can stop listening or taking people with seriousness because oh, their side has the moral superiority, oh, the other side's a bunch of racists, it shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion and turns into simply feeing smugly superior. And then when some people shut down complaint about THAT with mocking condescension for the straight white man, all it is is an expression of that imagined total moral superiority.

I'll be plenty honest with you, I am pretty privileged myself, I've had the luck to grow up on a household that has reached what could probably be called upper-income recently. But there are plenty of people for whom this sure as hell isn't the case. My father, for example, before he got where he is today, grew up as a dirt-poor rural kid. Literally had to eat trash. And people in those sorts of conditions live in the US today. So when this wall of condescension rolls in with "yeah poor white straight man riiiight" sort of stuff or the endless shutting down of conversation by just labeling the other side racist and shooing them away, it doesn't accomplish anything except let people on the Internet feel all tingly and moral. The people on the receiving end go "well fuck you then, damn liberals, trump's gonna put you in your place" and all that results is polarization and people tucking nicely into their respective echo chambers.

You can probably point to similar behavior among conservatives, sure, but considering my demographic (freshman college student who frequents the Internet) I see a whole hell of a lot more of this behavior from liberals. And I have to be careful to specify the Internet here. Out in the real world, the vast majority of my discussions with people on the other side of the political aisle have been thoughtful and civil, and even if not people were usually willing to listen without dismissing. But here on the Internet, or other media circles, that rejection and superiority routine can go on a whole lot easier, because you can just shame people out of a thread, make remarks about oh why don't they just go on down to 4chan/le leddit, and keep the atmosphere as conducive to ones own political beliefs, ultimately driving useful, thought-provoking discussion out. Shades of that appear here sometimes, and as can be evidenced from this post I'm a little tired of it.

[Rolepgeek]

The former (good person, not necessarily 100% aligned in policy). Because the more important thing about a President isn't how they're going to react to the problems we already know about, it's how they react to the problems we're going to get out of left field. Which you can't necessarily predict from a policy sheet.

Sorry, I wasn't all that clear; I meant for a Congressperson, where enacting legislature is probably the biggest part of their job.

[Powder Miner]

Actually, I'll balance my rant out by pointing out a time where a conservative DID try to go the full dismissive superiority angle on me. I was on /int/ arguing in favor of gay marriage and the other guy broke down and accused me of being a tumblr baby who expected /int/ to be a hug box, which was a little surreal. Still, that isn't exactly a problem on his site, so my grievance stands.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Your first mistake was going to /int/, the /pol/ for people who are too hipster for /pol/.

[Powder Miner]

I dunno, I like /int/. There are some legit real racists on that board, but I like it when other people from other countries express their opinions and I can have nice conversations with people across the world. There's also this weird international bond I see over shitposting sometimes, and I really like to see that.

[Frumple]

Sorry, I wasn't all that clear; I meant for a Congressperson, where enacting legislature is probably the biggest part of their job.

It's even more important for a congresscritter, really. They've got a lot less leverage to push poorly supported material through -- which means they have to have character and capability even more than ideological consistency, in order to get other people to work with them. All the platform consistency and whatnot in the world means jack-all if everyone else in the joint hates you, doubly so when it's for good reason. You want both, obviously enough, but the weaker the position the more important context becomes.

And if you're looking for plenty of examples of conservatives going full dismissive superiority, graftminer, you'll have an easy time finding them if you idle around twitter or stuff like news comments. I intentionally try to avoid paying attention to that stuff and it's still something I see constantly. Pretty sure I've talked about in-person stuff before, too. Y'all should thank whatever fucking gods you're comfortable with you're in an area where you get civility instead of an increased chance of broken limbs.

[mainiac]

Even in congress we do expect them to adapt to new stuff not wait two years for the voters to tell them what to do.

So seeing all this dismissiveness does a fair bit to sadden and disappoint me, as well as infuriate me. When people decide that they can stop listening or taking people with seriousness because oh, their side has the moral superiority, oh, the other side's a bunch of racists, it shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion and turns into simply feeing smugly superior.

Whereas you decide that the other side is being closeminded and so you stop listening to them.  Which shuts down any sort of meaningful discussion and turns it into a chance for you to feel smugly superior.

Actual sexism exists, along with actual racism, actual privledge, etc.  But whenever it is pointed out the discussion is shut down with bitching about how people are so quick to fly off the handle.

So when this wall of condescension rolls in with "yeah poor white straight man riiiight" sort of stuff or the endless shutting down of conversation

Yeah, people are assholes to you.  That's humanity.  The shit goes in all directions.

But what about the nice stuff?  What about the liberals picking a champion who is trying to help with the opioid epidemic in poor rural areas?  What about the liberals chosing that they are going to die on the hill of providing health insurance to poor people?  Or how the liberals are sticking by their guns to make sure this insurance reaches poor, rural conservative voters who aint exactly liberal after a conservative congress and conservative state governments teamed up to keep poor people from getting insurance in their states?  What about the liberals shoving a ton of money into making sure the poor rural people have access to high speed internet?  Or making sure that funding keeps flowing to the national parks and infrastructure spending that is a huge boon to the economies of rural areas?

You tell me I need to treat someone nice and I'll tell you to fuck off and shove that high horse you rode in on up your ass.  But I think it's fair to say that all liberals want the government to respect the needs and even the wishes of all people including the ones I dont like.

[Rolepgeek]

Actually, I'll balance my rant out by pointing out a time where a conservative DID try to go the full dismissive superiority angle on me. I was on /int/ arguing in favor of gay marriage and the other guy broke down and accused me of being a tumblr baby who expected /int/ to be a hug box, which was a little surreal. Still, that isn't exactly a problem on his site, so my grievance stands.

I'll say this: As you are well aware, conservatives are not just a lump. Neither are liberals, as you can probably tell from these forums. It's real easy to be superior over the internet, when you can call a bunch of people to your aid with the click of a button, especially if you have turned yourself into the good guy in your mind. Brexit support doesn't mean you're racist. It was supported by racists, but guilt by association is not admissible in court and I don't see why I would admit it elsewhere. Besides which, disliking immigrants isn't the worst thing in the world (there's economic reasons to dislike a larger labor market if you're unskilled, in particular, which have nothing to do with race).

I'm liberal but on the meta-analysis I think we agree, PM.

(Also oppression olympics are fucking stupid)

@mainiac: I don't think PM, at least, does. Don't stereotype conservatives if you can avoid it, man :p

[mainiac]

@mainiac: I don't think PM, at least, does.

What about the exact text I quoted?

[RedKing]

You're not worth the plane ticket.

wow

And any digs I take with you aren't out of nowhere, they're based on your gushing pro-Brexit stance. (cue faux outrage "We're not racists! It's purely coincidence that racial violence had a huge uptick after we won! Why, I even have a non-Anglo friend!")

Yeah, okay, I regret saying that we're at all accepting.  My only defense is I had just woke up, and I really do learn a lot about politics by listening here.

I was already iffy about the Folly thing.  He wasn't "supporting rape", fuck!  Just defending some unfortunate statements as not so bad.  But nooo, suddenly "grope" is always rape (because the definition mentions it's often nonconsensual - so it ALWAYS is I guess).  And thus Folly supports rape, and is probably one of those terrible MRAs!  How lazy can you get?

I mostly ignored that whole discussion due to real life stuff, so maybe Folly eventually said something truly reprehensible, but it sure started shitty.

And now you bring up Brexit as justification to hate on Covenant?  Starting that whole "All Brexiters are racists" bullcrap?  Grow up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or in the words of Donald J. Trump, "I'm sorry if anyone was offended."

You've never heard guys have that sort of conversation? Hell, I remember that kind of thing from school, from bloody teenagers. 'Did you do your homework?' 'No.' 'Oh, you'll be in for it from Mrs So-and-so'. 'Fuck no. I'm going to walk right up to her, whip it out, and be all 'Bitch -' insert disgusting descriptions of sexual acts, and much laughter. Needless to say, these conversations never translated into action. Boys/men are often crude - disgusting even, in their humour.

....that plane ticket is looking more attractive.

And let's be very clear here...it's not "boys/men are often crude" it's "me and my m8s are often crude". If I ever overheard my son say something like that, I'd smack his ass into last Tuesday. And this is as someone who does not take raising a hand against a child lightly. And I do it precisely because I know that left unchecked, those kind of bullshit, misogynistic, DEPLORABLE sentiments turn into guys who think it's okay to beat women/children, rape women, etc. You don't stop that shit after somebody becomes a rapist, you stop it as soon as they think it's okay to say shit like that because "it's just locker room banter".