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[Reelya]

Yeah, there were a surprisingly large number of states that turned down free money from the Federal government for Medicaid expansion because it was "Obama's money".

Taking federal money to spend on health of people in the state is tainted. Unlike campaign donations directly into your personal pocket from health insurance companies. That's clean and sterile.

The real threat they see is that Medicaid is the basis of a normal health system like 99% of the world has, and "normal" doesn't allow insane profit gouging.

[alway]

Yeah, that's also where the free preventative stuff is important too. The reason uninsured people end up costing a ton of money is because they can't afford to get that weird spot looked at until it's covering half their body and they're passing out from the pain. Then it's like "Well, time to do a $100,000 operation to mitigate this thing that could have been prevented for $100"

[Frumple]

It'd be nice if we could recognize that humanity is not made up entirely of asexual robots who perfectly follow acceptable protocol 24/7. There are a lot of different types of people out there, and just because you have not personally experienced cultures which acknowledge their baser nature and express themselves unabashedly, does not mean that those cultures do not exist.

... fol, I'm probably one of the people on this forum that's come closest to catching a ban or mute over the years for lascivious discussion without actually having it happen. And as I noted repeatedly, I have in fact been around a lot of people expressing themselves unabashedly. There are a lot of different people out there, and a-freaking-gain, those who express shit like trump stated are not just indulging in a mild violation of acceptable protocol. That you apparently don't realize that what trump said was really bloody egregious is kinda' troubling.

As miner noted, really. Though it's even worse than just sexual assault; he was talking about it specifically in context of leveraging his position of power/authority to commit them. That is messed up enough the hint of it gets people fired from jobs such as teaching positions, and can get otherwise consensual relationships to land people in jail. This isn't something that gets to be casually blown off. There's a lot of stuff that could have been, but not what was recorded.

[RedKing]

Hey, there's always time for a true meltdown at Debate Three once the level of pull-out (eeeeyyyyy) from Trump by the GOP becomes clear.

IIRC the Cadillac plans thing was just a tax, not a ban.

Probably functionally the same, given that they wouldn't offer Cadillac plans if they were heavily taxed.

Not exactly, since it's the policyholder that's taxed not the insurance company. I have a "Cadillac" plan in that I have I'm assessed a portion of the benefits above a certain threshold as income. And I can't really choose a lower-tier plan, because that's just what my company offers. But I'm totes okay with that, because I'd much rather have solid affordable healthcare and pay a little bit extra in taxes, especially considering that the amount of the taxes is less than what one doctor's office visit would be without insurance.

[Powder Miner]

About the only things I can really do here are chime in my two cents: cent one, I really really don't like that individual mandate because it legit punishes people, and not buying health insurance is not something the government should be punishing. Cent two, the entitlements take up two thirds of our budget already, the majority of that from medical entitlements, and since I advocate cutting spending I do tend to be anti-entitlement because I feel it to be the only meaningful way to cut spending or even prevent it from going out of control. I don't want to pay both literally once I get a job and figuratively for something I might never see at this rate. It feels like borrowing off of my future.

But this really is a topic I am, much like Donny, out of my element in.

[mainiac]

Probably functionally the same, given that they wouldn't offer Cadillac plans if they were heavily taxed.

Well it's hard to tell because the taxes on Cadillac plans aren't downright draconian.  It starts to be a more wonky question about tax incentives because benefits like health insurance aren't subject to income taxes.

[Reelya]

People get the life-saving treatment and then declare bankruptcy, so they don't have to pay that money. With the private system you basically have every element of the system gouging prices, so even if something structurally shouldn't cost so much, or the costs should be easy to absorb, they don't do it that way. So everyone else is paying for that $100,000 operation, which should only cost $30,000, but would actually have really cost $300 if the person had proper healthcare access from the start.

One thing Obama tried to do was to bulk-order generic drugs and get Medicare and Medicaid to use them rather than the retail versions. Imagine the purchasing power of 300 million people who need something. Would have saved tens of billions of taxpayers dollars, while allowing more money to be allocated for things it's needed for. They stopped that one real fast. Anyone on the GOP side who opposed bulk-buying in favor of handing out tax dollars to buy retail, is talking out their asses on "saving taxpayers money".

[mainiac]

About the only things I can really do here are chime in my two cents: cent one, I really really don't like that individual mandate because it legit punishes people, and not buying health insurance is not something the government should be punishing.

They should be punishing it though.  Someone who doesn't purchase insurance is passing the costs off to people who do.  The only way they wouldn't be is if we had a country that allowed you to die in the streets if you didn't get insurance.  And that would be deplorable.  What if you just forgot to renew your insurance and so we let you die?  You can't have a market under those conditions.  Given that we have chosen a market system (which I think is regrettable but here we are), you need to have the mandate to make the market work.

[Reelya]

There are American towns which have a fire tax, and if you forget to pay it (even a month late), they'll let your house burn down while they watch.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

[RedKing]

PM: I understand in an abstract sense about not wanting to be forced to have health insurance, or the general "why should I pay for things I won't use, just so others can have them?" stance.

But here's the thing -- this isn't the National Endowment for the Arts. This isn't funding to set up a Museum of American Underwater Basketry. Unless you're a robot or some incredibly advanced visitor from the future, you're going to get sick at some point. Sick enough that you can't just take chicken soup and lie on the couch and get better. It's not a fool's errand to pay some money every year to help insure that when you do get sick, it's not financially crippling to seek medical care. Will some people benefit far more than others? Absolutely, the elderly and people who have generally done a shit job taking care of themselves will get far more out than they put in. Which is why the government and public health agencies are also doing everything they can to say "Hey maybe deep-fried lard isn't the best idea for a bedtime snack, nor is chain-smoking 5 packs a day".

As mainiac said, the only other way around the mandate is to refuse medical care for anyone who opts out. Which ain't gonna happen, plus it would disproportionately affect the poor (as if they needed more shit heaped on them).

EDIT: @Reelya, why am I not surprised to see that happened in the rural South? >_<

[Powder Miner]

Oh, that... is a startlingly good point, actually. I'm still uneasy with the idea of a mandate to buy something on general principle, but perhaps I'll have to do a bit more research before I formulate a definite opinion.

[Loud Whispers]

@LW: Yes. Because I spank hard enough to hospitalize.
How about more post, less shit next time, m'kay?

I don't know your spanks mate

What part of "Does not take raising a hand against a child lightly" was unclear? When I say beat, I'm not talking abut spanking, I'm talking about the kind of shit that was done to me. Broken arms, scars, stab wounds, burn marks, etc.
Hell, I feel lower than pond scum on the few occasions where I have spanked my kids. But this is an example of something that I think would warrant it.
@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.

Hitting children in general is can of worms

[Frumple]

Oh, that... is a startlingly good point, actually. I'm still uneasy with the idea of a mandate to buy something on general principle, but perhaps I'll have to do a bit more research before I formulate a definite opinion.

Yeah, most goods or services it's not something you should even start to consider. Startlingly bad idea for most markets -- it's fair to be leery of it, in a general sense. Some, though (like, in this case, health care), it's significantly more likely to be on the table and reasonable to pursue. Not all goods are equal, and not all of them work the same way when it comes to stuff like market forces.

[RedKing]

@LW: Yes. Because I spank hard enough to hospitalize.
How about more post, less shit next time, m'kay?

I don't know your spanks mate

I have the best spanks. People are saying so. All the best people.

Whoops....wrong kind of spanks. But at least in those cases, IT WAS CONSENSUAL.

What part of "Does not take raising a hand against a child lightly" was unclear? When I say beat, I'm not talking abut spanking, I'm talking about the kind of shit that was done to me. Broken arms, scars, stab wounds, burn marks, etc.
Hell, I feel lower than pond scum on the few occasions where I have spanked my kids. But this is an example of something that I think would warrant it.
@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.

Hitting children in general is can of worms

Yeah, like I said...I don't like to do it because it opens up a grey area for me. 
But sometimes you have to make it clear that something is SRS BSNS.

[mainiac]

There are American towns which have a fire tax, and if you forget to pay it (even a month late), they'll let your house burn down while they watch.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

Which besides being dickish also does not solve the problem of funding the fire department.  Nor would it solve the problem of the fire department if they showed up and said "okay give us your life savings" because then you still have the people opting in subsidizing everyone who opts out but doesn't have their home burn down.  And it's actually a really good metaphor because health insurance is a lot like a fire department more then fire insurance.  It's okay for not everyone to have homeowners insurance that pays for fire damage.  But everyone needs to pay for the fire department.