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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1106213 times)

Reelya

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7095 on: October 25, 2017, 12:16:21 pm »

Those aren't good reasons to never question orthodoxy. Even Bernal's harshest critics concede that he was right about how scholarship got to that point.

Nobody ever questions the stuff he wrote about the "white washing" of Greek history that happened from the 18th-late 19th centuries because they know that they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they questioned what he wrote about that. And that's what about 2/3rds of his book is all about. So in other words, the vast bulk of what he wrote about how academia got to that state using dodgy logic isn't the part they try and refute.

Often they try and tar him with guilt by association - e.g. pointing out that what other people say is wrong, then implicate Bernal merely because he's on the same "side" despite him not actually espousing their views - or debunk things which he in fact clearly stated the opposite - in the intro to the first volume of the book he mentions that he doesn't believe that Egyptians were black, yet "black egyptians" is cited in articles like the one I linked above as something he "got wrong". Did that writer even read his book?

Or the "lack of widespread Egyptian settlements" argument, when in fact the vast bulk of his firrst book, when it's not talking about the 18th-19th century scholarship stuff, is in fact centered on the possibility of Hyksos settlement in Greece. And the Hyksos are categorically not Egyptians, nor were they black. Yet somehow they manage to write whole articles and books "debunking" him without even mentioning the Hyksos at all, which is weird since that was basically his entire theory.

So they disprove that "black Egyptians" were in Greece and say "Bernal got it wrong", when in fact his entire book is about west semitic conquerers who spread out of the Levantine region across the eastern Meditteranean. The idea is that these conquerers spread ideas in the same way that e.g. the Mongols had spread ideas through conquest, but not their own ideas. Nobody ever writes stuff to debunk that, but it's the entire theory.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 12:35:47 pm by Reelya »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7096 on: October 25, 2017, 12:18:22 pm »

There aren't good reasons to never question orthodoxy.
Not being burned at the stake is not enough of a good reason for you, heretic?  >:(
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7097 on: October 25, 2017, 12:34:33 pm »

*Meta EDIT
Sorry m8, didn't see you edit in more stuff, not ignoring your points
That's pretty much an appeal to consequence / appeal to emotion right there. If he writes something then it's just a book. If a whole discipline implodes because of him just writing a book, that's their problem, not his.
Of course it's their problem, that's why I bring it up. He can fire and forget as many things, he's one more missile fired at the fragile pillar of muh grecoroman anime studies.

Anyway they're all stuffy old academics, it's not your normal shtick to give a damn about their cosy little theories. I'm skeptical that you of all people are suddenly feeling bad for some academics who've had their ivory tower rattled.
I was lucky to go to one of the last schools offering Latin & Classics on the curriculum, from all I've seen of it it's not an ivory tower of stuffy old academics. You know me, I despise the lot! :D
Classics though, Jesus, it's not an ivory tower of aloof intellectuals. That tower fell down a long time ago and the underfunded remnants of starving students are scurrying through the rubble trying not to be swept away by the wind. It's a grim situation for all involved really, it's like God - a fragile thing, as strong as those who uphold it.

Also note that I've read Bernal's book, and at no point does he cite "large scale Egyptian colonization of the Aegean". So any disproof of that would seem to be a red herring / straw man. The Bernal critics suffer from one main flaw - they're often debunking stuff he never wrote rather than taking apart his actual argument. And the stuff they're debunking is often completely at odds with what is in his books.
Forget large scale, the critic was bringing up the point that there is no evidence of any colonization or interest in colonization from the Ancient Egyptians in the Aegean

e.g. the writer I cited above showed the Egyptians weren't black and and says "Bernal was wrong" despite ... "Black Egyptians" not having the slightest thing to do with anything Bernal wrote.
The criticism that Bernal was deliberately interpreting myths or legends wrong (portraying Danaus as the founder of Argos for example?), the criticism that Bernal used legend or myth as evidence in lieu of evidence (Cadmus bringing the alphabet far before we know the alphabet appears), Edith Hall talking of the historical approach to myth being outdated by the 19th century, James Weistein criticizing him for relying on his own interpretations of myths instead of evidence e.t.c., I don't see this addressed at all.

Also just to further stress, I do not hate education. As a matter of fact, I think it is one of the most important institutions we have. Police, Armies, Governments and Medical Services fix problems when it's too late - the damage is done. Schools fix problems before they are problems. Nor for that matter do I really have a disdain for ivory tower intellectualism, I value knowledge for knowledge's sake, I don't see why a philosopher has to justify a practical utilization of their vocation to exist, and it saddens me to see them serving as coffee baristas. I only have distaste for those smug few desirous of elitist consolidation, of families running dynasties of favoured children going to schools whose fees outstrip the salaries of multiple families. I feel bad when disciplines die, as I am learned to appreciate them :/

Those aren't good reasons to never question orthodoxy.
What orthodoxy existed?

Even Bernal's harshest critics concede that he was right about how scholarship got to that point.
Nobody ever questions the stuff he wrote about the "white washing" of Greek history that happened from the 18th-late 19th centuries because they know that they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they questioned what he wrote about that. And that's what about 2/3rds of his book is all about. So in other words, the vast bulk of what he wrote about how academia got to that state using dodgy logic isn't the part they try and refute.
Then call me the utmost harshest critic then because I call into question his use of anachronism especially regarding the 18th century, when it was the mid-19th century to mid-20th century that saw the birth of racialist discourse. Likewise it is easy to argue that many of the Academic Europeans of the mid-19th century were racist Orientalists, because there is an abundance of evidence pointing to that and was in discourse decades before Bernal published this book. So what are Academics going to address, something which in all likelihood they agree with because they studied it in critical theory classes when they were fresh 20 somethings, or the evidence-less assertion that Greek civilization is born from Egypt?

Often they try and tar him with guilt by association - e.g. pointing out that what other people say is wrong, then implicate Bernal merely because he's on the same "side" despite him not actually espousing their views - or debunk things which he in fact clearly stated the opposite - in the intro to the first volume of the book he mentions that he doesn't believe that Egyptians were black, yet "black egyptians" is cited in articles like the one I linked above as something he "got wrong". Did that writer even read his book?
What is this with black Egyptians? Answering the criticisms of fools is no substitute for answering criticism!

Or the "lack of widespread Egyptian settlements" argument, when in fact the vast bulk of his firrst book, when it's not talking about the 18th-19th century scholarship stuff, is in fact centered on the possibility of Hyksos settlements in Greece. And the Hyksos are categorically not Egyptians. Yet somehow they manage to write whole articles and books "debunking" him without ever mentioning the Hyksos at all. How can they not mention that at all when it's basically his central theory?
His central theory is that "the native population of Greece had initially been civilized by Egyptian and Phoenician colonists and that additional Near Eastern culture had been introduced to Greece by Greeks studying in Egypt and Southwest Asia. Moving beyond these prevailing models, Bernal proposes a Revised Ancient Model, which suggests that classical civilization in fact had deep roots in Afroasiatic cultures."

*EDIT
Mfw found out just now Bernal is an ancient academic dude born pre-War who graduated Harvard, Cambridge, Kings and Berkley
Ivory tower intellectuals strike again
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 12:41:44 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Reelya

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7098 on: October 25, 2017, 12:41:30 pm »

What's your beef with "Danaus as the founder of Argos" exactly? It's an established link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus

In the stories, Argos was previously ruled by King "Pelasgus", and "Pelasgoi" was the Greek term for the pre-Greek population of the Aegean (aboriginals basically). So the legend is deliberately coding the predecessor king as a "pre-Greek" ruler. So Danaus becomes the king of Argos, superceding Pelasgus / the Pelasgoi. Which suggests heavily that the event was being relayed to listeners as the "civilizing" moment of the city. Also you have Homer's Illiad refering frequently to the Danaoi or Argives as words referring to all Greeks fighting against Troy. So any founding myth of Danaus/Argos is in fact a founding myth of Mycenaean culture itself.

The story also says he fought king "Aegyptus". Pelasgus/Pelasgoi, Danaus/Danaoi and Aegyptus/Aegyptoi suggest that the names of the kings in the legend are intended as stand-ins for different ethnic groups. So it suggests that while from Egypt they were considered distinct from ethnic Egyptians, and Bernal's theory here was that it recounts resettlement of semitic populations originating in the levantine via Egypt some time in the 14th-17th dynasty era (the semitic dynasties / Hyksos era).

There's also contemporary Egyptian evidence for the Danaoi people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece
Quote
Egyptian records mention a T(D)-n-j or Danaya (Tanaju) land for the first time in circa 1437 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Thutmoses III (r. 1479–1425 BC). This land is geographically defined in an inscription from the reign of Amenhotep III (r. circa 1390–1352 BC), where a number of Danaya cities are mentioned, which cover the largest part of southern mainland Greece.[16] Among them, cities such as Mycenae, Nauplion and Thebes have been identified with certainty. Danaya has been equated with the ethnonym Danaoi (Greek: Δαναοί), the name of the mythical dynasty that ruled in the region of Argos, also used as an ethnonym for the Greek people by Homer.

Another link is the family tree of Danaus according to Greek sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus

- His great grandfather was King Epaphus of Egypt while the second-last Hyksos king was Apophis.
- His father was Belus, the hellenized version of the Hyksos' main God, Baal.
- His cousin was Cadmus, Phoenecian founder of Thebes (which was definitely part of the "Danaya" nation according to Egyptian sources)

It doesn't make any sense for the Greeks to make up that their founding hero was a descendent of an Egyptian king with the same name as the last strong Hyksos ruler. Not if the point of it all was to "respect" a supposed Egyptian heritage, as the Egyptians despised the Hyksos and tried to eradicate any memory of them.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:12:39 pm by Reelya »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7099 on: October 25, 2017, 02:41:03 pm »

In more contemporary European news:  it's very very likely that the Catalonian Govern will try  to proclaim a Republic tomorrow https://www.instagram.com/p/BarQvh7hsIV/?taken-by=carlespuigdemont

In my heart of hearts I wish them luck and success.  My cooler head tends to agree with the spokesman of the Basque Nationalist Party, who saw that path as too risky, as declaring independence only to have it recogniced by noone and losing control of the regional institutions in the process is pretty sterile.

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RedKing

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7100 on: October 25, 2017, 02:57:09 pm »

Plot twist: Catalonians were Phoenicians the whole time.
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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7101 on: October 25, 2017, 04:09:46 pm »

In more contemporary European news:  it's very very likely that the Catalonian Govern will try  to proclaim a Republic tomorrow https://www.instagram.com/p/BarQvh7hsIV/?taken-by=carlespuigdemont

In my heart of hearts I wish them luck and success.  My cooler head tends to agree with the spokesman of the Basque Nationalist Party, who saw that path as too risky, as declaring independence only to have it recogniced by noone and losing control of the regional institutions in the process is pretty sterile.

I think the catalonian govern came to the conclusion that Castille is going to dissolve catalonian autonomy anyway so they might as well make as much noise as possible and make the central government look as bad as they can.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7102 on: October 25, 2017, 05:00:21 pm »

In more contemporary European news:  it's very very likely that the Catalonian Govern will try  to proclaim a Republic tomorrow https://www.instagram.com/p/BarQvh7hsIV/?taken-by=carlespuigdemont

In my heart of hearts I wish them luck and success.  My cooler head tends to agree with the spokesman of the Basque Nationalist Party, who saw that path as too risky, as declaring independence only to have it recogniced by noone and losing control of the regional institutions in the process is pretty sterile.

I think the catalonian govern came to the conclusion that Castille is going to dissolve catalonian autonomy anyway so they might as well make as much noise as possible and make the central government look as bad as they can.
Yes, I can see why they would think that, as the hardliners in the ruling PP party do want that no matter what.

I think this situation could have been solved very easily ten years ago... but spiraled out of control two months ago. Maybe even before that.  There are people on both sides of the debate wanting to sit down and talk... but it's unlikely that it will happen due to the underlying pressure.
 
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7105 on: October 26, 2017, 07:02:57 pm »

glhf Catalan but playerSpain seems to have the pop advantage

ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7106 on: October 27, 2017, 01:47:22 am »

I wish them the best of luck.   But this is likely to be messy for everyone involved.

Like I have said previously, I think all the main actors are driven now by what their environment wants, rather than what they think. Its unlikely that the Catalonian president is unaware than an unilateral independence with no army and no international recognition isn't going to last long.  On the other, even dumbass Rajoy is probably aware that doing the 155 is plunging into Terra Incognita, and that breaking an Autonomy Statute brings you thirty years of bad luck.  Even so, I think we have been heading this way for a while. The event horizon was crossed months, maybe years ago.
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martinuzz

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7107 on: October 27, 2017, 08:42:26 am »

So this morning, Catalonian parliament voted on a motion submitted by the pro-independence parties to declare independance.

In protest, the members of opposition parties PP, Socialist Party, and Ciudadanos left the parliament session and did not vote.
The remaining members of parliament voted anonimously, and with 70 votes in favour (it needed 68 votes), the motion passed and independence has been declared.

Meanwhile, Spanish prime minister Rajoy expects to get senate approval any moment now to intervene in Catalonia.


.... Here's to hoping people will keep their heads cool enough to resolve this without resorting to lethal force.
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smjjames

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7108 on: October 27, 2017, 08:49:24 am »

Couldn't they have made a bigger statement by staying and voting against?

And yeah, last thing we want to see are tanks rolling through Catalonia. I doubt it'll get quite that far, but still.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #7109 on: October 27, 2017, 09:32:11 am »

Couldn't they have made a bigger statement by staying and voting against?

And yeah, last thing we want to see are tanks rolling through Catalonia. I doubt it'll get quite that far, but still.

I don't doubt it will get that far. It's the only thing the PP knows to do (if it wasn't they could have prevented all this by actually talking with the Catalonians ten years ago), and so far the EU has not lifted a finger in this drama.

Even so, visca la República. I wish the Catalonian Republic luck and success.  If nothing else their stand has been exemplary.
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