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No (flat 0.3E/T/u, break-even times 3T, 5T, 8T, 13T, 19T) (pro: Balances T4-based agents, contra: Takes forever to break even)

6 (33.3%)

Yes (1/3 creation cost/T, break-even times 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T, 3T) (pro: 3x break-even ratio preserved, contra: Low-tier races useless)

2 (11.1%)

Yes ((tier + 1)/3, break-even times 3T, 6T, 8T, 10T, 12T) (pro: Maximizes above two's strengths? contra: Maximizes above two's weaknesses?)

9 (50%)

Yes (other scale posted in thread)

1 (5.6%)

Yes (another scale posted in thread)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 18

[Vgray]

And so it begins  . Time will pervert KJP's simple system into something just as complex as before.

How can you call that trait list simple?

How much in game time has passed between ye gods 2 and this one?

We haven't even decided if we're keeping the old world.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I know but i still imagine it's set in the same universe.

[Stirk]

The only uncreative races I've made are humans and things based off of humans. All my other living creations are fairly creative.

Not really. I can't think of any other race you created aside from them. One was a super saiyan expy, I guess. Expies or humans. Heck, your Angels are either "Generic Angels" or expies. Basically humans with wings.

Not really. For all I know, Vigor is willpower and Spirit is basically a mana level.

It couldn't be any more clear about its meaning. The fact that all the others line up with the "Standard Attributes" means that you should be able to guess what the last one is, even if you had to question what "Spirit" was. I could take this list to anyone else on this forum and ask what they think the stats where, and I would probably get an accurate answer. Even then, a casual look in the rulebook would tell you what things do. "Shaken" characters make a "Spirit" roll, testing their Willpower. It wouldn't make sense for them to test mana level in that situation. Vigor adds tougness and is rolled to avoid dying, why would it represent anything other than Endurance? It is obvious. Blatant. You should know what it is supposed to be, and if you don't, the book does state it indirectly by telling you what each stat can actually do instead of what each stat "is".

I saw the line and promptly forgot about it because it said nothing about -needing- to read it to understand some of the core stats for race creation. I knew enough from the title and its PDF nature that it was a tabletop rulebook and I didn't want to read several pages of rules unless I had to.

You don't need to read it to understand race creation. Well, most people don't, but you seem to have difficulties grasping simple concepts right now. Heck, of the rule book, 13-16 are the character sheets, 10-12 are a traits list, and 1 is a cover page. You only have 9 pages if information, skimming them would be trivial. If you want to understand what is being rolled and when, read the book. If not, then don't complain about not knowing things. You can't have it both ways.

For a tabletop game. For a forum game, it's a lot. Even YG2 only had rules 2 pages long and one of those pages was just a list of traits. Moreover, it's a tabletop game about normal people (for a given definition of 'normal') rather than gods. If I have to read a 16 page rulebook to play a god game, I'd like if most of those pages related to all aspects of the game rather than just race traits.

No its not. It is a game about creation. The Creations you make use a modified version of these rules. Again, you don't have to read it, but if you don't then you can't kvetch about how its sooo hard to tell what this fancy "Strength" attribute is.

I'm ok with reading most of the rules in the BBoI/TToI because they're all directly related to the game and they're all substantial, interesting, and without having a bloated size. The 16-page supplement is a lot of words to read that only relate to a single facet of the game. I could spend an hour reading the whole thing and getting bored out of my mind...or I can just read the summary you posted and be done with just a few seconds of reading. Seriously, that summary could be put right in the Tome and nothing of value would be lost.

Again, if we take away the pictures and the traits list, it is 9 pages. 4659 words, give or take. In comparison, the Abridged Book of Info is about 2111 words, and the Full Book is 3552. That is to say the Information book is about half as long as this "16 Page Lolololo!" book you are so afraid of reading. In fact, if I add the Traits list (~2705 words) to either Big Book, then they are actually longer then the PDF (who has its trait list included in my estimations). Really, your only excuse is "I'M TOO LAZY!!!111", which you use often enough to be annoying.

that trait list simple?

...I thought it was simple.

[Andres]

The only uncreative races I've made are humans and things based off of humans. All my other living creations are fairly creative.

Not really. I can't think of any other race you created aside from them. One was a super saiyan expy, I guess. Expies or humans. Heck, your Angels are either "Generic Angels" or expies. Basically humans with wings.

My angels were based off of humans so you're not proving my argument wrong. I made a few unique races as Malakath, actually. The only ones I remember, however, were those semi(?)-sapient animals and the Spirit Weapons (forgot what they were actually called). If I remember correctly, you called the latter a rip-off of Soul Eater's Weapons despite the Shinjo actually having more in common with them.

[Stirk]

The only uncreative races I've made are humans and things based off of humans. All my other living creations are fairly creative.

Not really. I can't think of any other race you created aside from them. One was a super saiyan expy, I guess. Expies or humans. Heck, your Angels are either "Generic Angels" or expies. Basically humans with wings.

My angels were based off of humans so you're not proving my argument wrong. I made a few unique races as Malakath, actually. The only ones I remember, however, were those semi(?)-sapient animals and the Spirit Weapons (forgot what they were actually called). If I remember correctly, you called the latter a rip-off of Soul Eater's Weapons despite the Shinjo actually having more in common with them.

I don't remember you making any sort of animals, as Malakath or otherwise. And either way, your Spirit Weapons are obviously based on either my Shinjo design or the Soul Eater race (Thus, we get back to the "Expy" problem).

[Kilojoule Proton]

Spoiler: Quick changelog (click to show/hide)

Updated Trimmed Tome section on worship: "Only worship quantity exists now, and it is based on the number of population units."
Updated Trimmed Tome section to add missing suggestions on private in-game discussions and ways around the 20 PM/user/hour limit
Reduced price for Resurrective to  because it's far too expensive given that it also has a required trait
Improved non-basic race tiers to allow more room for variety/power

Spoiler: Upcoming (click to show/hide)

Quick rundown on actually relevant bits of SW rules (attributes, pages with Edges, and pages with Hindrances)
Trimmed Tome stuff on starting up magic
Better format for trait list (parenthesized requirements are confusing)
Notes on customizations/renames

Andres:

Spoiler: Math (click to show/hide)

Caveat: Not a mathematician or a professional variable namer

Let CARD be the sequence 1.1, 1.21, 1.331, 1.4641, 1.61051, ...
Let CARDBOARD be the result of dividing each term (after the first) in CARD by the previous term like so: 1.21/1.1, 1.331/1.21, 1.4641/1.331, 1.61051/1.4641, ...
Simplify CARDBOARD: 1.1, 1.1, 1.1, 1.1, ...
Given this, a rule describing the terms of CARD would likely be of the form CARD(n) = a 1.1ⁿ where n ≥ 1 and a = 1
Multiplying each term in CARD by a non-zero constant would only change a. Note that the first term of CARDBOARD derived from 2*CARD would be 1.21*2/1.1/2

Let SPEED be the sequence 2, 4, 12, 48, 240, ...
Let SPEEDBOAT be the result of dividing each term (after the first) in SPEED by the previous term like so: 4/2, 12/4, 48/12, 240/48, ...
Simplify SPEEDBOAT: 2, 3, 4, 5, ...
Given this, a rule describing the terms of SPEED would likely be of the form SPEED(n) = a n! where n ≥ 1 and a = 2
Here again, multiplying each term by a non-zero constant would only change a.

Spoiler: Angel template? Hmm... (click to show/hide)

Name: KJP's Batty Minions
    Tier: Tier-4 (8pts, 9E/pop. unit)
    Resurrective (3pt), Hard to Kill (2pt), Arcane Background (2pt), Flight (2pt)
    Minor Hindrance: Loyal (-1pt), Major Hindrance: Heroic (-2pt) (interpreted relative to creator to allow for villainous angels)
    Remaining points: 2
    Description: A bat-winged lunatic carrying a briefcase, stealing the dreams of little children

Name: KJP's Batty Counsel [sic]
    Base: KJP's Batty Minions
    Experience: Veteran (8 advances, 9E/agent)
    0 -> Novice:
        Attributes (tot. 5): Smarts+4, Spirit+1,
        Skills (tot. 15): Taunt+5, Faith+2, Intimidation+2, Tracking+5, Knowledge (Legal)+1
    Novice -> Seasoned (4 adv.):
        Spirit+1
        Notice+1
        Notice+2
    Seasoned -> Veteran (4 adv.):
        Edge: Dodge
        Intimidation+1, Knowledge (Legal)+1
        Intimidation+1

Name: KJP's Batty Counsel
    Base: KJP's Batty Minions
    Experience: Veteran (40)
    Attributes: Ag d4, Sm d12, St d4, Sp d8, Vi d4
    Traits: Resurrective, Hard to Kill, Arcane Background, Flight, Loyal, Heroic, Dodge/Defense+2
    Skills: Taunt d12, Faith d6, Intimidation d10, Tracking d12, Knowledge (Legal) d6, Notice d8
    Description: KJP's elite Batty Minions. They fly around and screech.

Rolepgeek:
Worship and Influence: Having high Worship does reduce Influence, but only because the Influence gets calculated as actual Worship instead. Having a high Influence, on the other hand, does not affect Worship.

Pantheons: Missing bits added

Spoiler: Detoxicated (click to show/hide)

Name: AldogaN
Primary form: Giant Rattlesnake made of glass shards
Symbol: A rattlesnake
Spheres: Snakes, Glass
Friends, Enemies: If applicable and public (in-universe friends/enemies!)
Description/Background: A gigantic snake, Aldogan is witty and swift, yet very dormant if left alone. Being clear about stuff is his goal, as he would like to be like glass.

Added

AbstractTraitorHero: Not sure. Right now, we have (in yes:no:abstain format) 5:3:2 for importing gods (=optional), 3:4:3 for importing races (=probably not), and 3:6:1 for importing worlds (=probably not). There's a call for importing Pantheons, but seeing as they're autonomous, that's up to their members.

All: I do agree the current traits system probably isn't as simple as it could be, but I hope the somewhat more LEGO-like (~discrete/modular?) traits system and fixed pricing simplifies things a bit.

Stirk and Andres: I hate to reuse an image macro, but here it is:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

$$$Response already!?
Andres:
[Can't Use Magic]: Don't add on [Arcane Background]
[One School of Magic (school)]: Added as [Slightly Magical] +1
[Unaging]: This may end up just being a flavor trait for races and some sort of age-resistance edge for agents. Named characters will likely be assumed immortal where reasonable (or gifted with a powerful legacy where unreasonable) because of the messiness that results from not having a fixed in-universe Tick lengh.

micelus:
[Infertile]: Probably -2? A lot depends on how fast the dying off happens
[Fusion Breeding]: Probably 0
[Authority Equals Power]: Assuming a mundane type of power, 0
[Savage]: Mention technological level being lower by 1 (which optionally allows increasing magical development)
[Gluttonous]: +1, likely homologous to [Resist (negative consequences of eating organics)]
[Wild Child]: (Spirit)+1 or (Spirit)+2 in addition to flavor text
[Nomadic]: Flavor

[micelus]

Nah I mean ork-style authority. I.e, more authority makes the individual stronger.

[Kilojoule Proton]

$$$Response
[Authority Equals Power]: +3, interpreted as a twist on [Leadership+3] in which having authority grants a scaling bonus

[IcyTea31]

Andres:
(spoiler=Math)

Somehow, this made less sense to me than the original explanation. No need to re-explain it; I got it the first time, but I wouldn't understand this if it stood alone.

[Andres]

Andres:
(spoiler=Math)

Somehow, this made less sense to me than the original explanation. No need to re-explain it; I got it the first time, but I wouldn't understand this if it stood alone.

Yeah, it didn't really clarify anything for me either.

Spoiler: Angel template? Hmm... (click to show/hide)

Name: KJP's Batty Minions
    Tier: Tier-4 (8pts, 9E/pop. unit)
    Resurrective (3pt), Hard to Kill (2pt), Arcane Background (2pt), Flight (2pt)
    Minor Hindrance: Loyal (-1pt), Major Hindrance: Heroic (-2pt) (interpreted relative to creator to allow for villainous angels)
    Remaining points: 2
    Description: A bat-winged lunatic carrying a briefcase, stealing the dreams of little children

Name: KJP's Batty Counsel [sic]
    Base: KJP's Batty Minions
    Experience: Veteran (8 advances, 9E/agent)
    0 -> Novice:
        Attributes (tot. 5): Smarts+4, Spirit+1,
        Skills (tot. 15): Taunt+5, Faith+2, Intimidation+2, Tracking+5, Knowledge (Legal)+1
    Novice -> Seasoned (4 adv.):
        Spirit+1
        Notice+1
        Notice+2
    Seasoned -> Veteran (4 adv.):
        Edge: Dodge
        Intimidation+1, Knowledge (Legal)+1
        Intimidation+1

Name: KJP's Batty Counsel
    Base: KJP's Batty Minions
    Experience: Veteran (40)
    Attributes: Ag d4, Sm d12, St d4, Sp d8, Vi d4
    Traits: Resurrective, Hard to Kill, Arcane Background, Flight, Loyal, Heroic, Dodge/Defense+2
    Skills: Taunt d12, Faith d6, Intimidation d10, Tracking d12, Knowledge (Legal) d6, Notice d8
    Description: KJP's elite Batty Minions. They fly around and screech.

I can see this is your way of telling me to look to the past that I may realise myself the truth of the Angel Template. Truly you are a wise and benevolent GM.

$$$
Price check on [Aligned]: Gives nifty abilities based on creator
Price check on [Unique]: Grants uniqueness, which increases the cost of copying the specific creation, increases plot armor, and increases  the relevance of the creation
Price check on [Absolute Loyalty]: Grants creation total loyalty to its creator(s) but zeroes out piety

EDIT:

[Can't Use Magic]: Don't add on [Arcane Background]

That still leaves 20% of the population able to use magic. The trait I proposed means that 0% of the population can use magic.

EDIT2: But really, thanks for giving an example of agent creation. I didn't know I wanted it until I had it.

[Stirk]

I can see this is your way of telling me to look to the past that I may realise myself the truth of the Angel Template. Truly you are a wise and benevolent GM.

$$$
Price check on [Aligned]: Gives nifty abilities based on creator
Price check on [Unique]: Grants uniqueness, which increases the cost of copying the specific creation, increases plot armor, and increases the relevance of the creation
Price check on [Absolute Loyalty]: Grants creation total loyalty to its creator(s) but zeroes out piety

...No, he is using the Character creation system that is in the book you just didn't bother to read.

[Andres]

...No, he is using the Character creation system that is in the book you just didn't bother to read.

KJP told us to shelve this discussion so that's what I'm gonna do.

In other news, I typed in "eldritch angel" into Google Images out of curiosity and maybe some inspiration and there's actually a lot of cool designs here. What's most interesting to me are the various interpretations of the halo. Obviously I can't use some of these designs due to Eid's personality but it's still given me a lot of new ideas. Now I'm even more excited for this game to come back.

[Happy Demon]

Well, I have an idea for a race, so I'll just make a template so I don't forget it.
Maybe poke you with a price check later.

Spoiler: Skinless Ones (click to show/hide)

Unnamed Race.
[Claws][Climbing][Protection -2][Resist Cold -1][Resist Sunlight -1][Strength +2]

On average 8 feet tall, with a tail. They have no skin, leaving their flesh vulnerable to wounding, sunlight, and cold.
Exposure to sunlight causes pain and damage, but can't kill them, only weaken.
They have jet black flesh and glowing red eyes. They're wide in build, with muscular bodies.
They have claws, with which they can climb or harm.

[Stirk]

*Sigh* I give up. Design time! Time for my prototype Archangel, the Crunch at least. Judging by the other example, we will have 20E (functionally) again. I'll probably end up modifying things a bit more, after I am awake and can make sure I got the numbers right.

Spoiler: Stirk's WIP Archangel (click to show/hide)

Henrietta Halftrack
Tier-4 (9E, 8pts)
Hard to Kill (2pt), Resurrective (3pt), (Attribute)+2 (2pt), Attractive(2pt),Extra hand*2(2*2pt), Loyal (-1pt), Overconfident (-2pt), Heroic (-2pt)
Veteran (9E)(8Advances)
Attributes (+11)
Ag d4, Sm d12, St d4, Sp d10, Vi d12
Skills (+15)
Shooting d12, Fighting D12, Persuasion D4

Total cost 18

Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)

Henrietta Half-track ("Chopper" for short*) is humanoid at first glance. She about a head shorter than a base creation. She has a pair of long twin tails, going down to her socks. Each is the color of railroad wood, tied in place with a bent railroad spike. She typically wears a dark-blue conductors uniform, complete with an especially large hat marked with a white star. Her arms are clamped behind her back permanently as if she is standing at attention, never moving them under any situation. They are simply a distraction, her actual "arms" are her twin-tails. They are are made of a powerful material, much like the muscle of normal Angels. When in combat, they move to block or divert incoming threats, moving constantly like whips through theqq air defending and attacking in equal measure. In emergencies or serious fights, an extra pair of twin-tails emerge from hiding under the hat, bursting out of the back to join the flurry. Personality wise, she is cheerful and full of energy, if overconfident much of time time. She is often seen smiling, even in the heat of battle.

* I designed this character based on the M3 Half-track, specifically the quad-mount anti aircraft version complete with a M45 Quadmount. The M45 Quadmount has the nickname "Meat Chopper", which I am taking 'cuz the halftrack itself doesn't have any.

[micelus]

We working on stuff before the game is even live? Eh, might as well. All "" refers to point costs which I have no idea what to do. Minor Hindrances translate to -1 while Major is -2, right?

Spoiler: Humans (click to show/hide)

Caste 1
Tier-2(3E/Unit) (3pts)
Infertile (-2), Leadership(+3), Spirit (+1), Agility (+1)

Caste 2
Tier- (E/Unit) (-2pts)
Infertile (-2), Protection (-1), Vow (-1/2???), Slightly Magical (+1), Curious (+2), Healers (+1),

Caste 3
Tier-??? (???E/Unit) (???pts)
Extreme Breeder* (+???), Immobile (), Leadership (+5), Smarts (+3), Vigor (-2), Protection (-2), Defence (-2), Anemic (-1???)

*Creates Castes 1 and 2 at a ratio of 90:10.

Alternatively, Caste 3 may be replaced with agents if agents can give birth to races.