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[Loud Whispers]

Also, Israel is not even close to targeting civilians. If Israel did, it would use far cheaper artillery not airforce and Gaza would be Mariupoled fast. They are caring even less than usual if civilians will die together with a single HAMAS-related target but it is not targeting civilians.

1. Israel does not use Soviet artillery doctrine, it uses Western air power doctrine where the heaviest fire support comes from air. Every single Russian BTG had an artillery unit attached to it at the start of the Ukraine war.
2. They are using artillery and air strikes right now on Gaza. There has never been a period where Israel has refrained from using artillery and air strikes to destroy thousands of homes. I just don't get how you can come from the Ukrainian perspective of fighting against illegal occupation but then somehow ignore all the Human Rights Watch or United Nations documentation showing how everything you say indicative of murderous assholes is indeed, well documented. Just today IDF said they dropped 1,000 tons of bombs on Gaza. When the British annihilated Dresden in WWII, they dropped 3,900 tons of bombs. Explosives do not become safe or surgical if they are dropped by an aeroplane instead of fired from a gun

[Strongpoint]

1. It is not about the doctrine.  If the goal is to raze a city, district after a district, dumb fire artillery is a way more practical, cheaper, way to do it. Israel has a shitton of artillery.

2. I find it insulting when Ukrainians are compared to Palestinians. And very tired of that on forums\in social networks. When some Ukrainian group will execute a bunch of random Russian civilians in a vile way AND a significant chunk of Ukrainians will openly celebrate it, then you may make such comparisons. Until then, I kindly ask you not to.

3. Israel does not do its due diligence when selecting targets. Israel does and always did clearly excessive stuff like annihilating some HAMAS member together with his home, his family and a few neighbors. And now it is even more reckless and uncaring than usual. But again, Israel is not doing "intentional collective punishment retributions to kill random civilians". It simply doesn't. Unlike HAMAS who uses its rocket exactly to kill civilians. Israel has and always had the means to turn all of the sector of Gaza into Mariupol\Aleppo\Grozny within days. Even now, they are not doing it.

4. Dresden is an interesting thing to mention. Was it really necessary to kill German children in carpet bombings? No, that war could be won without this. It would last longer, cost more lives of allied soldiers but that war could be won without carpet bombings of residential areas. Israel is in a similar situation. It is unacceptable that HAMAS, as evil as the NSDAP, is ruling anywhere on this planet. It must be destroyed. And there is no way to achieve it without major bloodshed. And Israel, understandably, values its soldiers more than Palestinian civilians.

[Il Palazzo]

You will keep hearing such comparisons, because there is a point of commonality - living under occupation. That is sufficient. Nobody says the two situations are the same (I hope) but people will want to know why you have no sympathy for Palestinians given that particular starting point. Getting insulted at that makes you look irrational.
So far it seems you feel Palestinians (not just Hamas, but I assume not the Israeli ones) are so far removed from your standards of morality that they have forsaken all the good will you might have had for them. Is this a correct characterisation?

[Strongpoint]

So far it seems you feel Palestinians (not just Hamas, but I assume not the Israeli ones) are so far removed from your standards of morality that they have forsaken all the good will you might have had for them. Is this a correct characterisation?

I believe that the Gaza Strip is a mini Third Reich. Place in which a vile ideology came to power and poisoned minds with propaganda making things awful. They actually share the idea "All Jews Must die.". And please, don't tell me that they care about 1967 or 1947 or whatever border technicalities. They don't. They want no alive Jew in all of Palestine and never hid this desire. And they raise new generation with moral conviction that killing and torturing Jews is great and proper. It will get worse with every generation unless HAMAS is removed (it may still get worse if HAMAS is not removed but at least some hope is there)

Do I have empathy for Palestinians being killed in the war? Yes, I do. As I have empathy thinking about the horror of Nagasaki and Hiroshima or what kind of "humane" stuff Red Army did to ordinary Germans. But it didn't come out of nowhere. It makes it different.

Imagine an alternative universe, HAMAS did the very same brilliant surprise attack as they did but brought havoc only to the military, and security targets. Or even also attacked government institutions and assassinated some politicians... If Israeli would do the same response, it would look different, wouldn't it?

[Il Palazzo]

I believe that the Gaza Strip is a mini Third Reich.

I'm not sure this analogy is anymore apt than it being another Warsaw under Nazi occupation. But it is similarly suspect for strongly colouring the perception one way or another.

[Schmaven]

I came across some footage of Hamas' attack, and it looks like it was done by evil people.  To purposefully target civilians, take women and children hostage, killing and mutilating the bodies other women and the elderly... Not to mention slaughtering almost an entire festival worth of people just trying to have a good time. 

But on the subject of war crimes, it is 100% a war crime to use human shields.  And Hamas is definitely going out of their way to co-locate their military operations with civilians and journalists - forcing the Israelis into an impossible situation of either allowing them to continue their barbarism unchecked, or to stop them at the high cost of innocent lives (hence why doing so is a war crime).  By doing so, Hamas is responsible for forcing Israel's hand in such a way, and then they use the subsequent tragedy to try and make it look like Israel is targeting the civilians on purpose.  Pretty evil if you ask me.

[Maximum Spin]

You will keep hearing such comparisons, because there is a point of commonality - living under occupation. That is sufficient. Nobody says the two situations are the same (I hope) but people will want to know why you have no sympathy for Palestinians given that particular starting point. Getting insulted at that makes you look irrational.
So far it seems you feel Palestinians (not just Hamas, but I assume not the Israeli ones) are so far removed from your standards of morality that they have forsaken all the good will you might have had for them. Is this a correct characterisation?

The Russian partisans in the DPR and LPR also believed that they lived under occupation by Ukraine. Do you think of them the same way you do Palestine?

[Strongpoint]

I believe that the Gaza Strip is a mini Third Reich.

I'm not sure this analogy is anymore apt than it being another Warsaw under Nazi occupation. But it is similarly suspect for strongly colouring the perception one way or another.

You asked my opinion, I responded. You may say it is coloring or exaggeration but it is exactly how I see the situation based on all available evidence. You may provide evidence to try to persuade me that I am wrong, that it is not as bad as a mini Third Reich. But saying that it is a bad analogy with not a single reason of why it is a bad analogy is meaningless.

I can say more. I think that Hamas-ruled Gaza is more morally corrupt than Putin-ruled Russia. You know, the fascist country that currently kills my compatriots. (But Russia is far stronger and thus has a greater capacity to do evil)


I want to see this war over with Israel's victory as soon as possible. I hope Israel will show restraint. More restraint than they do now, because I do believe that they do cross the line here and there. But the decisions they make aren't easy and wars aren't pretty. And many of the war crimes allegations made by corrupt, useless,  and hypocritical organizations like HRW, AI, UN are laughable and impossible to avoid in any real war.

[Rockeater]

You will keep hearing such comparisons, because there is a point of commonality - living under occupation. That is sufficient. Nobody says the two situations are the same (I hope) but people will want to know why you have no sympathy for Palestinians given that particular starting point. Getting insulted at that makes you look irrational.
So far it seems you feel Palestinians (not just Hamas, but I assume not the Israeli ones) are so far removed from your standards of morality that they have forsaken all the good will you might have had for them. Is this a correct characterisation?

The Russian partisans in the DPR and LPR also believed that they lived under occupation by Ukraine. Do you think of them the same way you do Palestine?

Even though I think the original comparison isn't great, it is important to note the war crimes and crimes against humanity Israel has done, unless Ukraine has done such crimes as well your comparison is pointless

[anewaname]

Some portion of the Israeli populace has made a business of divesting Palestinians of land and product over decades. It has been profitable for those groups and they used violence against civilians routinely. Their profit gave them political power within Israel.

Now the people of Israel are upset that the far-right has the political power to attempt to permanently seize power.

Should they be surprised?

If you allow people from your nation to commits actions outside of your nation, actions that would be illegal in your nation, then they will gain power within your nation and attempt to subvert its laws.

[Strongpoint]

You will keep hearing such comparisons, because there is a point of commonality - living under occupation. That is sufficient. Nobody says the two situations are the same (I hope) but people will want to know why you have no sympathy for Palestinians given that particular starting point. Getting insulted at that makes you look irrational.
So far it seems you feel Palestinians (not just Hamas, but I assume not the Israeli ones) are so far removed from your standards of morality that they have forsaken all the good will you might have had for them. Is this a correct characterisation?

The Russian partisans in the DPR and LPR also believed that they lived under occupation by Ukraine. Do you think of them the same way you do Palestine?

Even though I think the original comparison isn't great, it is important to note the war crimes and crimes against humanity Israel has done, unless Ukraine has done such crimes as well your comparison is pointless

So-called DNR and LNR always claimed that Ukraine does both. Why their claims are less valid than those of Palestinians?

Furthermore, I guarantee you that there were war crimes committed by Ukrainian troops. There are no wars with no war crimes, especially when, like in 2014, many units are hastily armed civilians with loose organization

[Maximum Spin]

Furthermore, I guarantee you that there were war crimes committed by Ukrainian troops. There are no wars with no war crimes, especially when, like in 2014, many units are hastily armed civilians with loose organization

Yes, and in both cases, you are also talking about heavy involvement by irregular far-right militias acting on long-simmering intra-community ethnic tensions.

I've certainly heard stories, and there's little reason to doubt at least the outlines of them unless you (meaning, Rockeater) demand all your morality fables to be strictly black-and-white.

[Rockeater]

Are there sources to the claims of Ukrainian war crimes besides those republics, I am aware various human rights ngo's and the UN are not some neutral arbiters so it's not need to be something on the scale of declarations against Russia, but some source which isn't propaganda.

As for the claim of black and white, where did I say that, what I said is that some comparisons are more accurate then others,  I will admit my mistake that I thought you responded to a different post.

[Maximum Spin]

Are there sources to the claims of Ukrainian war crimes besides those republics, I am aware various human rights ngo's and the UN are not some neutral arbiters so it's not need to be something on the scale of declarations against Russia, but some source which isn't propaganda.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have both documented examples, especially relating to mentioned far-right militias.

As for the claim of black and white, where did I say that, what I said is that some comparisons are more accurate then others,  I will admit my mistake that I thought you responded to a different post.

I said that you have to acknowledge the likelihood that no war is ever conducted perfectly cleanly unless you demand your morality fables to be strictly black-and-white. If you don't, then it's insane to dismiss reports against the side you prefer as propaganda altogether.

[Strongpoint]

There is also another dimension of war crimes. A lot of Geneva Convention stuff makes sense ONLY if both sides follow it.

Take deliberate attacking of medevacs, something the Ukrainian army is doing at a grand scale. Why? Because it is a damn effective tactic and Russians always were doing it. This war would be less horrible if both sides agreed to not do this (and it is what Geneva and other conventions are all about) but they don't. And you shouldn't demand one side to fight with one hand behind their back to be "better than them". Real life is not a movie in which heroes defeat villains without "falling to their level".

It is why I find it extremely annoying when Israel is villainized for bombing targets with little care for civilians when the other side is firing dumb fire rockets in the general direction of populated areas.

There are war crimes that absolutely can't be justified by "the other side is doing it". Rape is not justifiable. Mistreatment of POWs is not justifiable. Executing civilians is not justifiable. Basically, those that not only war crimes but also crimes against humanity.

But many "de jure" war crimes are, actually, quite justifiable when they are effective methods to win a war and not just senseless cruelty.