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[The_Explorer]

Apparently lebanon has sent a force to infiltrate north israel

Other nations in middle east seem very eager to join in against israel

Its almost seemingly the start of a massive global war in the middle east, at least it seems like it to me. And peace at this point doesn't look like its going to be a thing.

[Strongpoint]

Apparently lebanon has sent a force to infiltrate north israel

Other nations in middle east seem very eager to join in against israel

Its almost seemingly the start of a massive global war in the middle east, at least it seems like it to me. And peace at this point doesn't look like its going to be a thing.

It is not 1970s anymore, most Arab countries have exactly zero interest in being involved in a war with Israel. But I expect that Israel will invade Lebanon and Syria to deal with Hezbollah and Iranian influence in the region.

Israel mobilized 350K troops. It is huge. It is more than the initial Russian invading force. They wouldn't do it just for handling HAMAS.

[Bralbaard]

But many "de jure" war crimes are, actually, quite justifiable when they are effective methods to win a war and not just senseless cruelty.

I am sure that after the war crimes HAMAS committed, it is very tempting to state that certain war crimes by Israel should be all fine and acceptable for the time being, but that is an extremely slippery slope. Slippery with the blood of innocent people.

But sure, point taken, when you are equal or smaller in power it might be tempting to cut corners on human rights to reach military victory. It is also a risk. Ukraine's success greatly depends on continued support by their allies and popular support in those countries. News of serious war crimes would not help that cause and it looks like it will be a long war, where support will be needed for a long time.

But now for the situation in the middle east. If the military force of one side is many, many times that of the other, there should be a higher expectation for that side to keep the moral high ground. Israel is at no risk of losing this war if they at least attempt to respect human rights, but there is certainly risk if they don't.
Arab countries might in general be indifferent to Israel now, compared to the seventies, but if israel invades it's neighbours, or just goes on a killing spree, this indifference to what Israel is doing might well change and we could be back in a far worse situation.

And with that I've not even discussed the human cost of war crimes, which should be the very first and most important consideration. It's just hard to look at the middle east and not become depressed. Currently the power on both sides of the conflict rests with people who are not interested at all in making things better, and thus it seems, it will only get worse.

[Maximum Spin]

I am sure that after the war crimes HAMAS committed, it is very tempting to state that certain war crimes by Israel should be all fine and acceptable for the time being, but that is an extremely slippery slope. Slippery with the blood of innocent people.

Without taking a position on the larger dispute, I'm guessing you're not really familiar with what things are actually war crimes. Most of them don't involve any innocent people, like perfidy. Most people seem to have a highly distorted understanding of what war crimes are, both ways.

[Nirur Torir]

It's not "They killed Israeli civilians, so Israel is fine to kill theirs."
It was a surprise attack with the goal of slaughtering and kidnapping civilians, and then they retreated behind their own civilian shields.
They don't get to go "neener-neener, the Rules of War keep us safe now that our fighters are behind civilians."

I don't think I can condemn Israel for marking civilians as collateral damage here, until they start making attacks specifically against civilians.

My thinking is that starting this war was a dumb move. There's nothing to be gained in a relatively small strike against civilians, and too much has been spent smuggling in munitions and somehow keeping the attack secret, for them to waste it like that. 4000 rockets could have done a lot of damage to military and government infrastructure instead. I think either the leadership has been bribed to start the war, or they have been given reassurances that they won't be fighting alone.
I'm not sure sure that Russia is the one who supplied the rockets when it's already low on artillery munitions, and its funds being depleted and sanctioned makes bribery tricky. Russia likely played a part, but I expect someone else is doing the heavy lifting, and Israel is wise to be preparing for an attack from another direction.

[Maximum Spin]

Israel is wise to be preparing for an attack from another direction.

...did nobody tell you? They've already been attacked along the northern border (with Syria and Lebanon), reportedly by Hezbollah.

[Strongpoint]

My thinking is that starting this war was a dumb move. There's nothing to be gained in a relatively small strike against civilians, and too much has been spent smuggling in munitions and somehow keeping the attack secret, for them to waste it like that. 4000 rockets could have done a lot of damage to military and government infrastructure instead. I think either the leadership has been bribed to start the war, or they have been given reassurances that they won't be fighting alone.

https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1712030588872351872 - well, one of HAMAS's members said interesting things about the operation. It looks they do expect help but it is not their main motivation for the attack.

[hector13]

Human Rights Watch show video of Israel using white phosphorous in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world.

[bloop_bleep]

I want to see this war over with Israel's victory as soon as possible. I hope Israel will show restraint. More restraint than they do now, because I do believe that they do cross the line here and there. But the decisions they make aren't easy and wars aren't pretty. And many of the war crimes allegations made by corrupt, useless,  and hypocritical organizations like HRW, AI, UN are laughable and impossible to avoid in any real war.

I disagree. Israel doesn't need to turn Gaza into a desert to protect itself. That is not "self-defense," like Hamas murdering children and excising babies from wombs is not Palestinian resistance. This is especially so considering Israel's far right government's past history of causing the conditions that allowed Hamas to grow, including but not limited to directly aiding them to counterbalance the Palestinian Authority and deny Palestinians their state -- https://jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 .

Something like Hamas existing is a foreseeable consequence of decades of oppression on Israel's part, including the abject deprivation of the people of Gaza under the blockade, impunity for fanatic settlers, draconian security procedures, lack of willingness to move towards a Palestinian state. If you play with matches, and cause a house fire, you can say that house fires are bad all you want -- because obviously, of course they are -- but if what you really want is fewer house fires, rather than some senseless obliteration to satisfy your self-serving immediate cathartic impulses, you shouldn't play with matches.

There have been times when whole cities have been taken over by criminal gangs, who are in fact Very Bad and will kill, rape, torture people. Many cities in Mexico are or have experienced this. Most of the time those issues have been solved, it has not been because the entire city was simply bombed to ashes. If Israel bombs every Palestinian home, wiping out Hamas and ten times its worth in civilians, it will sow another Hamas to sprout in five years and start it all over again. The only proven way to stop terrorism is to give people better lives, just like how you reduce crime in a city. A vibrant, developing Palestine does not produce a Hamas.

EDIT: Also I fail to see a significant difference between killing civilians to kill civilians and being completely indifferent to killing civilians and killing civilians.

[Strongpoint]

bloop_bleep, tell me your actions if you would become an absolute ruler of Israel, how would you start solving this? Because criticism makes sense only when an alternative is proposed and not some vague "make Palestine prosperous" but actual steps that will peacefully remove HAMAS


Also, I wouldn't compare gangs\mafia to a strong hateful totalitarian ideology.

[bloop_bleep]

It cannot be totally peaceful at this point. But that is not what I was saying. I'm saying Israel should not carpet bomb Gaza and they should not cut electricity and water, and they should not blockade it to humanitarian aid. They should actually be careful with their strikes and not just level entire blocks. After this is settled, it's time for Israel to start taking its agreements under the Oslo Accords seriously. Take steps to de-escalate the situation by removing illegal settlements in the West Bank. Give the Palestinian Authority de facto control of at least Area A.

[hector13]

Israel has urged 1.1 million people in Northern Gaza to flee to the south within 24 hours, because that’s feasible, especially considering it’s a week after they stopped fuel from getting in.

[Magmacube_tr]

Israel has urged 1.1 million people in Northern Gaza to flee to the south within 24 hours, because that’s feasible, especially considering it’s a week after they stopped fuel from getting in.

So... Isreal is starting on finally finishing the job?

[Strongpoint]

Israel has urged 1.1 million people in Northern Gaza to flee to the south within 24 hours, because that’s feasible, especially considering it’s a week after they stopped fuel from getting in.

So... Isreal is starting on finally finishing the job?

If by finishing you mean "entering into a brutal urban fighting that will be a bloodbath before establishing an occupation regime that will need to deal with resistance for a long time while also risking a wider war with Iran and its proxies" then yes, looks like it.

This war adds to my depression. In a better world, conflicts of such scale should be easily solved by an overwhelming force of the international community forcing both sides to behave... but we live in a world in which the United Nations exist.

[McTraveller]

It's hard to evaluate the situation, not living there and getting everything filtered through media.

All I know is that one side putting down their weapons isn't going to stop the death; it really does require both sides to stop.

I don't know what "an overwhelming force of the international community forcing both sides to behave" would look like practically.  For a crazed individual you can restrain them, tranquilize them, whatever.  But what do you do with crazed populations of 1000s of people? How do you restrain them without significant violence (since restraint itself is violent)?

I don't have these answers. Personally I just can't relate to the worldviews of either side... I just cannot hate anyone or even any group that much. Nor can I understand the views of "it's our duty/destiny/right to control this piece of geography" stemming from religion or history or any other cause.