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[Strongpoint]

Hamas will execute Israeli hostages one by one if Israel continues to target Gaza civilians, spokesperson says

Qassam Brigades Spokesperson Abu Ubaida says they will broadcast the audio and video of the executions

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So, full-ISIS style. I think it is panic. Looks like HAMAS expected the usual stuff, some retaliatory bombing, loud words, negotiations for hostage release, and stuff like that not determination to destroy. Usual tricks like ammo dumps in mosques, hospitals and schools just don't work anymore. Neither will execution of hostages

Also, Israel is not even close to targeting civilians. If Israel did, it would use far cheaper artillery not airforce and Gaza would be Mariupoled fast. They are caring even less than usual if civilians will die together with a single HAMAS-related target but it is not targeting civilians.

[Frumple]

They've been deliberately targeting civilian structures already, and have a history of doing so with little to no regard as to actual military impact, as well.

I've seen it brought up a number of times elsewhere when questions about the bombings come up, but the shin bet/IDF didn't even know the main attack was coming, how the hell do they know what's in those buildings? It strains credulity more than a little, and an obvious answer is they don't.

Fuck hamas and all it stands for, but try not to forget the IDF's history in the process.

Any case, it's peanuts compared to cutting off food, water, and power, so far as the civilian impact is concerned. Also don't think anyone that matters really cares, and probably won't until the gaza body count hits at least five digits. Maybe not even then.

[hector13]

They’ve also cut off medical supplies to hospitals, and fuel for generators.

[Strongpoint]

I am afraid I have a rather different perspective on what happens when a modern army actually gives no Fs about civilians. I fail to see even 1\10th of what Russians unleashed on Mariupol.

But what is true is that no one will really give an F when (not if) the number of dead will reach 5 digits. Many estimates say that the number of killed in Mariupol is actually 6 digits. It is already almost forgoten

[Great Order]

This whole conflict is very "Turd vs poop". Seems there's only one good side and that's the civilians just trying to live their lives who are caught in the middle.

What I find bizarre is that nobody seems capable of any nuance - Either you're for Israel or you're for Hamas. Trying to condemn one side gets you "Oh, so you think the other side are good then?!" and trying to condemn both gets you ire from both aisles.

[McTraveller]

I don’t know what to say or think. Nothing seems appropriate.

Mostly it’s because I can’t imagine what it’s like to live as a conquered people group. Technically I’m a part of a conquering group, but that was centuries ago… I know I’m part of oppressive systems though, mostly by diffuse participation in the global economy…and by general inaction and “minding my own business.”

But if you’re going to wage war… there’s no humane way to do it if you ask me. The entire human race is culpable. There are no civilians… people allow their regimes to take hold, they don’t keep leaders accountable for atrocities, or they encourage and participate in the rhetoric and fomenting hatred or actual destruction. War sucks because if nothing else it reveals that we are *all* the bad guys…

[Frumple]

This whole conflict is very "Turd vs poop". Seems there's only one good side and that's the civilians just trying to live their lives who are caught in the middle.

What I find bizarre is that nobody seems capable of any nuance - Either you're for Israel or you're for Hamas. Trying to condemn one side gets you "Oh, so you think the other side are good then?!" and trying to condemn both gets you ire from both aisles.

One of the things I keep circling back to mentally is the reason the IDF was so out of place, the primary cause from the israeli side the attack was as bad as it was?

They were over around the west bank due to unrest caused by israeli settlers going around fucking lynching people, that was encouraged by genocidal bastards like ben-gvir.

None of the civilians involved deserve what's happening, but so far as hamas and most of the israeli leadership goes, a pox on both their damned houses, at this point.

[Strongpoint]

This whole conflict is very "Turd vs poop". Seems there's only one good side and that's the civilians just trying to live their lives who are caught in the middle.

What I find bizarre is that nobody seems capable of any nuance - Either you're for Israel or you're for Hamas. Trying to condemn one side gets you "Oh, so you think the other side are good then?!" and trying to condemn both gets you ire from both aisles.

I'd suggest trying some egoism here.

Consider being on the side of the country that is the most LGBTQ-friendly (or the least LGBT-hostile) in all of the Middle East. Victory of such a country over a political entity that believes that LGBTQ people should be executed on the spot should be a good thing, no?

[hector13]

What would the difference be between murdering an LGBTQ ally and murdering an LGBTQ hater?

[Frumple]

I'd suggest trying some egoism here.

Consider being on the side of the country that is the most LGBTQ-friendly (or the least LGBT-hostile) in all of the Middle East. Victory of such a country over a political entity that believes that LGBTQ people should be executed on the spot should be a good thing, no?

The problem with that as a heuristic is israel isn't currently heading in a direction that stays LGBT friendly, so it's kind of a wash. Their fastest growing internal demographic is ultra-orthodox nutjobs that have little more love for the LGBT than they do for the palestinian. Right this minute, they're the better option from that perspective, but it's a "Heads, you lose now, tails, you lose later" type of deal. Which is a pretty shit deal.

You'd probably rather just not side with anyone that's going to make you lose, if the option's there

[sodafoutain]

A lot of people's interpretation of Palestine v Israel is washed with the taste of Vietnam and the US swinging it's dick where it doesn't belong. Disclaimer is very necessary, as I'm a 'murican, but as I understand it Israel was created in the wake of WWII. Their genocide of Palestinians is an attempt to remove any demographic that could rightfully challenge their government's domain over the land, backed by more conventional western superpowers. You can't evaluate things like these on an evil v evil basis. Resistance in the form of violence needs to be evaluated by understanding who has the most to gain in what ways, and I'd argue that the Palestinians are fighting just to survive.

[The_Explorer]

Its better to not say ANYTHING critical of either side.

Its a lose/lose.

Why?

Against israel (even if its just and only the leadership of it)? Must be a nazi (which I see often on X/twitter)
Against hamas? Must be islamaphobic (which I also see often on X/twitter)
Against both? DEAD (metaphorically speaking in this case...like a restaurant getting canceled so much that they close down kinda thing...hopefully uh not literal)
Say nothing negative about either - no one ends up saying anything negative toward you.

(edit: to add though

I think its safe to be critical of the actions of both sides, more than making a comment on that particular side itself.

[Strongpoint]

Their fastest growing internal demographic is ultra-orthodox nutjobs that have little more love for the LGBT than they do for the palestinian. Right this minute, they're the better option from that perspective, but it's a "Heads, you lose now, tails, you lose later" type of deal. Which is a pretty shit deal.

This reminds me both "Trump Won! Fascism is inevitable in the USA now!" and "Muslims are the fastest growing demographics in Europe! Soon they'll outvote everyone and Europe will be like the Middle East!"

Society development is cyclic, expecting that Israel (or let's say Poland, which also has a problem of religious nutjobs undoing progress) will continue going in one direction is hardly a rational fear.

Are there risks that Israel will go into a downward spiral as far as human rights go? Sure. But more often than not political trends change.

[Frumple]

I mean, I think we're all hoping they do, but bibi just passed on an easy chance to boot the far-right nuts out of leadership positions so it's pretty up in the air. If he stays in power after this mess, shit's not likely to go well on that front.

... if there is a bright side, the historic israeli reaction to something like what happened in the last few days is to boot whoever presided over it, once the dust actually settles, and general sentiment towards the haredi and their allies in israel currently seems to be pretty poor, so... maybe. Hopefully. It (and the dissolution of hamas, if that happens) would be the only good thing to come out of this

E: Though as fucked up things go, something to consider: The median age in Gaza is 18. The last election was 16 years ago, and hamas's reaction to getting a small majority of the legislative seats off a sub-majority of the vote was basically to murder the rest of the elected government.

This whole fucking mess, all of it since '06? Most of the people in gaza had literally zero say in it, too young to have voted, and the ones that did -- what they actually voted for was effectively couped, and then basically any dissenters tortured or killed.

Just one more bit of tragedy to the pile.

[martinuzz]

The Israeli army reports that all holes in the wall are under Israeli control. Landmines have been deployed to deter further crossings.
Inside Israel, 1500 bodies of dead Hamas fighters have been counted, adding to the 700 Palestinians that have been killed in Gaza.