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[10ebbor10]

Now, an interesting consideration.

It is armored all around with light armor, of mild steel,

This means it's armor is officially thin. I'm not sure if our Mosin can take that out, but our autocannon should rip them to shreds.

[VoidSlayer]

AS-T421 Medium Tank

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

22 ton tank operating a diesel engine and treads.  Heavy sloped 75mm aluminum armor on the front with medium 35mm aluminum armor on the rest of the vehicle.  It has a forward facing AS-1912 Artillery A turret with 90 degree rotation and two AS-AC18, one mounted on the top and one mounted in the rear both with 360 degree rotation.  5 crew; 1-2 drivers, 3-4 gunners.

Inspiration T-34 medium tank

Though obviously our design will be much less effective.

[Andres]

1) Thin, <10 mm (all measures approximate and used for historical reference)
Keep in mind that 0 armor is still armor and can stop stuff like 9mm pistol rounds.

We could potentially revise our uniform to have ultra-thin, 0 armour and basically make them immune to SMG fire, plus we could use the opportunity to better the camo (giving us an opportunity to get rid of our helmet flags). The downside is we get no LMG.

AS-T421 Medium Tank

A mild tank costs 4 Ore already. Getting that much aluminium will drive the price up to 5 Ore, maybe 6 Ore. (We'll get 3 Ore next turn, meaning it'll be Very Expensive or a National Effort if it's complex). Developing RHA with current thickness is a more effective way of increasing our armour.
The other problem is that it's a tank and tanks aren't good in jungles.

[VoidSlayer]

Oh, I thought we still had access to 4 ore.

I guess it's too ambitious a design.

[Sensei]

Now, an interesting consideration.

It is armored all around with light armor, of mild steel,

This means it's armor is officially thin. I'm not sure if our Mosin can take that out, but our autocannon should rip them to shreds.

That would accurately describe previous engagements between Smashers and AC18's, more or less.

1) Thin, <10 mm (all measures approximate and used for historical reference)
Keep in mind that 0 armor is still armor and can stop stuff like 9mm pistol rounds.

We could potentially revise our uniform to have ultra-thin, 0 armour and basically make them immune to SMG fire

Infantry armor does not use the vehicle armor system. It's far more nuanced and the the demands for light weight and articulation are too great. Keep in mind further that someone wearing a metal vest and helmet which are immune to bullets still has a lot of exposed flesh.

[10ebbor10]

I see a problem with that tank.

The Moksburgian tank costs 4 ore, 2 oil. Yours is heavier, and uses aluminum. So, that's 6 ore, at least. We have 3 ore next turn. So, the tank is very expensive due to Ore requirement alone. Add any complexity for any part of the design (Inventing Diesel engines, medium armor, heavy armor) or any increase in oil consumption and we can't deploy it.

I have a few proposals. But first, some guesswork.

Spoiler: Table of penetration based on historical and in game info (click to show/hide)

0 Armor : Can Stop pistol bullets
1 Armor : Can stop 7.62 mm bullets, but not always with AP [In game evidence/Historical]
2 Armor : Should stop 0.6 caliber at medium range. [Historical evidence, the 1918 german anti tank rifle with special AP bullet could penetrate 22 mm at 100 m. Their rifle is not designed as anti-tank, and has no armor piercing ammunition, thus unlikely to be effective despite being a tad bigger]

Hence, my design proposals :

Spoiler: AS-MV21-AL (click to show/hide)

The MV21 is an armoured car build specifically for Jungle use. It runs on a petrol engine and has hydropneumatic suspension for increased speed, better terrain traversal, and a more stable shooting platform. It has an man-operated turret where a belt-fed AC18 with AP rounds can be mounted, though a 1910 can be mounted there instead. The passenger side has a 1910 mounted on it.  It is fully build in Aluminum. It has light armor in front, and thin armor on the sides.

If engineers have time to spare, they're free to design a series of simple armor plates which can be strapped onto armor at crew's request, thus protecting our best crews better.

This makes our armored car better armored than their tank, and most importantly, lighter than their armored car at the same time.  Cost is likely to be 5 Ore, due to the +2 from aluminum, but this should merely render it expensive.

Spoiler: AS-AB1E-1921 (click to show/hide)

A single engine, all aluminum monoplane bomber. A bit ambitious, yes, but the Germans build all metal monoplanes in 1915. Their main problem was that the metal they used was too heavy. But we have plentiful aluminum.

The all aluminum monoplane design should make it much faster than anything they have.

Chances are that it's going to be very expensive, using both more oil and more ore than we have.

[QuakeIV]

The other problem is that its my understanding that Aluminum armor is not all that great.

[Andres]

Spoiler: Table of penetration based on historical and in game info (click to show/hide)

0 Armor : Can Stop pistol bullets
1 Armor : Can stop 7.62 mm bullets, but not always with AP [In game evidence]
2 Armor : Should stop 0.6 caliber at medium range. [Historical evidence, the 1918 german anti tank rifle with special AP bullet could penetrate 22 mm at 100 m. Their rifle is not designed as anti-tank, and has no armor piercing ammunition, thus unlikely to be effective despite being a tad bigger]

This isn't quite right. The Smasher is Light with Mild Steel, giving it the protection of 1 Armour. By your logic, we should've had reports of AP getting through the tank's armour at least occasionally. Instead, the only report of small guns killing those tanks is when our SMG guy sprayed into the inside of one through the hatch. Their Struunk is Thin armour with mild steel, giving it 0 Armour. Our 7.62mm very occasionally managed to slip through and our AP rounds only upgraded that to occasionally going through rather than very occasionally.

Of course, this could just be an oversight of the GM for all I know.

Spoiler: AS-MV21-AL (click to show/hide)

The MV21 is an armoured car build specifically for Jungle use. It runs on a petrol engine and has hydropneumatic suspension for increased speed, better terrain traversal, and a more stable shooting platform. It has an man-operated turret where a belt-fed AC18 with AP rounds can be mounted, though a 1910 can be mounted there instead. The passenger side has a 1910 mounted on it.  It is fully build in Aluminum. It has light armor in front, and thin armor on the sides.

If engineers have time to spare, they're free to design a series of simple armor plates which can be strapped onto armor at crew's request, thus protecting our best crews better.

First of all, I must say I like the naming scheme and I'm flattered you used my design. It being light would certainly help, but it would make it Expensive for using too much Ore, just like with Moskurg's. If we could make a simple armoured car, we'd outnumber the enemy since we have the resources to build them. After making it simple, we could try researching RHA to make all of our armour better, including our body armour and tank. Our Mountain bunkers might also be able to resist bomber attacks better.

Spoiler: AS-AB1E-1921 (click to show/hide)

A single engine, all aluminum monoplane bomber. A bit ambitious, yes, but the Germans build all metal monoplanes in 1915. Their main problem was that the metal they used was too heavy. But we have plentiful aluminum.

The all aluminum monoplane design should make it much faster than anything they have.

Chances are that it's going to be very expensive, using both more oil and more ore than we have.

You forgot to include a defensive machine gun or autocannon of some sort. That would've been disastrous.

I'm going to continue to support my own design for the armoured car, but with a little change.
Design the AS-MV21. It should be cheap and if there's time left over (and it's around as good as the Struunk), it should use RHA armour.

Spoiler: AS-MV21 (click to show/hide)

The MV21 is an armoured car build specifically for Jungle use. It runs on a petrol engine and has hydropneumatic suspension for increased speed, better terrain traversal, and a more stable shooting platform. It has a man-operated turret where a belt-fed AC18 with AP rounds can be mounted, though a 1910 can be mounted there instead. The passenger side has a 1910 mounted on it. The armour is equal to the Struunk.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[10ebbor10]

You forgot to include a defensive machine gun or autocannon of some sort. That would've been disastrous.

Not really.

They have a biplane. Ours is a monoplane aluminum design. They simply can't catch it.

Making the Armored Car use RHA is not a good idea, I think. It will probably upgrade the cost by 1, which is enough to push it over the edge. We either should go full aluminum or use mild steel and absorb the casualties.

[andrea]

we really need better armored cars, agreed. and improving armour tech is an overall benefit.

I vote for the AS-MV21

not sure about designing a bomber later... the reason we seem to hold the skies is that we can afford an awful lot of planes. Perhaps we should keep that strategy with cheaper( in terms of oil) planes, and use strafing to supplement our troops. But this is a discussion better held next turn.

RHA should not increase ore cost. the change is in how the metal is processed, not in how much metal it requires. Thickness is the same, weight is the same, effectiveness goes up.

[10ebbor10]

Spoiler: List of observations (click to show/hide)

Keep in mind that 0 armor is still armor and can stop stuff like 9mm pistol rounds.

This means it's armor is officially thin. I'm not sure if our Mosin can take that out, but our autocannon should rip them to shreds.

That would accurately describe previous engagements between Smashers and AC18's, more or less

Some Moskurg officers still use the ancient Horsekiller rifle, which has difficulty penetrating the sloped front armor of the AS-T15 but a well-placed shot on the side of the tank can penetrate.

In one instance, a Struunk's crew is killed by sidelong Nosin-Magant fire, which penetrated the armor.

The Struunk ran circles around it and killed the AS-T15's crew with its M1 Stallion machine gun- shots towards the boiler were stopped not by the armor, but the coal supply.

In this area the new use Arstotzkan armor-piercing ammo see some gainst SPATs. Infantry who encounter a SPAT are usually hiding behind an AS-T15, and while rounds from a Nosin can now often pierce the armor, usually these encounters are decided by fire from the two vehicle's artillery guns

A Smasher's armor is only penetrated by cannons, which the motorcycles don't have and AS-T15's don't have on their sides.

RHA should not increase ore cost. the change is in how the metal is processed, not in how much metal it requires. Thickness is the same, weight is the same, effectiveness goes up.

Pretty sure processing cost is included in ore cost. If not, it's still probably that the new tech will be complex on it's own merit.

Spoiler: Armor Assumptions (click to show/hide)

0 : Can not be penetrated by SMG. Can be penetrated by 7.62, reliably with AP.
1 : Can be penetrated by the Autocannon. Can be penetrated by 0.60 cal with proper aiming or at short range. Can't penetrate if angled.
2 : No Such armor deployed

This observation leads me to believe, that the Light aluminum armor should be near invulnerable to everything but their artillery.  Sure, it'll be expensive, but that's no real problem for vehicles. Especially since they have to split their drivers over 3 different designs. Note also, that our autocannon has less ammo than their machine guns. If we make armor equal, then it becomes a game of who shoots first, which they will win. If we make it better, then we get an advantage.

[Andres]

This observation leads me to believe, that the Light aluminum armor should be near invulnerable to everything but their artillery.  Sure, it'll be expensive, but that's no real problem for vehicles. Especially since they have to split their drivers over 3 different designs. Note also, that our autocannon has less ammo than their machine guns. If we make armor equal, then it becomes a game of who shoots first, which they will win. If we make it better, then we get an advantage.

Excellent job on the research and I agree with the assumptions. There are a few problems, though no with anything you said, save you saying we should use aluminium.

If we had a 12.7mm MG, we could pierce the enemy's armour with AP easily and actually have a slightly faster reaction time due to the lower weight of ammo. Unfortunately, we have no such thing.

Giving it aluminium wouldn't help unless we gavee it Light Armour. By your own assumptions, a .60 cal would pierce Thin armour of RHA quality at short range. Considering it's the jungle, the fights will mostly be short range. More armour and the use of aluminium would drive the cost to 5 Ore, 6 Ore if we make it entirely aluminium as you suggested. If the car is at all complex (unlikely, since it was only complex for Moskurg due to designing Petrol Engine), it'll be Very Expensive or a National Effort.

There is hope, however. 0 Armour can be reliably penetrated by AP rounds. Our 1910s carry AP rounds. With the gun in the turret and the gun in the passenger seat, we could unload a storm of AP rounds into our enemies with a quicker reaction time. With allowing the turret to be equipped with an autocannon instead, we can have some of the cars be used as medium/long-range support which occasionally happens in the Jungle. It'll be especially useful in the Desert due to the longer ranges and little to no cover. Finally, if we actually manage to develop RHA they won't be able to damage them with anything save that Stallion. They'll have a 0 effective weapon (Brumby) and a 1 effective weapon (Stallion) against us while we have two 0.8 or 0.6 effective weapons against them (1910), totalling their 1 vs our 1.2/1.6. Our weapons are better than the Stallion for anti-infantry too. We win.

While writing this post, I realised that their car was Expensive due to complexity. The managed this despite not having Petrol Engine or Crude Battery technology at the time. I reckon we can be a bit ambitious and have our turret be electric, increasing our reaction time further.

Design the AS-MV21. First priority is getting it equal to the Struunk in terms of armour and vehicle performance. Second priority is making it cheap. Third priority is RHA. Fourth priority is electric turret.

Glory to Arstotzka.

[10ebbor10]

More armour and the use of aluminium would drive the cost to 5 Ore, 6 Ore if we make it entirely aluminium as you suggested.

Their armored vehicle only cost 3 ore, armoring is identical.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

They will likely use their expense credit either on bombers or on tanks. I don't know about you, but I want to counter this not focus on retaking jungles, We don't want to see them pushing in Taiga.

My vote goes here:
AS-UG21-40
Design a high velocity 40mm universal gun that can be used both for firing flak shells at their aircrafts, AP shells at their tanks  and light HE shells at their infantry. Its carriage should be optimized to be towed by motorbike through rough terrain for strategical mobility and be light enough allowing crew to push for some tactical mobility

This is too be followed by motorbike revision this turn making it sturdier and more-all terrain-capable and rearming it with 20mm gun to give a chance against tanks.

This way we get a weapon again current and perspective tanks, a gun to arm our next tank with, secure our heartland against bombers and hopefully push in desert using more mobile motorbikes and our new light guns. If motorbikes will be all terrain enough to use in mountains, than it may break the stalemate here. Who knows, maybe new motorbikes will allow us to push back in jungles?

[Andres]

More armour and the use of aluminium would drive the cost to 5 Ore, 6 Ore if we make it entirely aluminium as you suggested.

Their armored vehicle only cost 3 ore, armoring is identical.

Their 3 Ore cost is due to Thin mild steel armouring. Making it Light like our tank would increase the Ore cost by 1. Armouring it in aluminium increases its cost by another 1.

Oh yeah, we're talking about armoured cars and I'm proud of my design. *clears throat* Blitzkrieg all the way to Moskurg!

Tell the diplomat that we regret the machine guns we designed are being used for piracy in the Arabian sea. Offer to share with them the design for free and point out its weaknesses so they can more effectively combat the pirates. State our wish to join the League of Nations and our desire to interact with the international community more often.

Glory to Arstotzka.